| ▲ | ttiurani 3 hours ago |
| For context, a statement from the legal experts who monitored the trial. > It is our collective assessment that the jury verdict against Greenpeace in North Dakota reflects a deeply flawed trial with multiple due process violations that denied Greenpeace the ability to present anything close to a full defense. https://www.trialmonitors.org/statement-of-independent-trial... |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| As an outsider, why is this a credible institution over the jury and judge? |
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| ▲ | docdeek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I can't speak to the institution but the only public statements on their website relate to this particular trial. It could be this is the first ever trial they have monitored in this way; it might also be a group that will only ever monitor this one trial. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I guess I was expecting a Matt Levine-style breakdown of why the trial was run improperly and why an appellate court would be expected to strike it down. Instead we have vague statements that could have come from an elected’s staff. | |
| ▲ | amarant 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In other words Greenpeace is trying to muddy the waters and hide their guilt by painting themselves as the victims of injustice? How very original.. | | |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah we're dealing with a mud fight between two highly resourced adversaries who are practiced in bullshit underhanded tactics and influence operations. |
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| ▲ | harimau777 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In America, just about anything is more cridble than our "justice" system. | |
| ▲ | mistrial9 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | related topic -- "Judge shopping" refers to the practice of litigants strategically filing lawsuits in court districts or divisions where they are likely to be assigned to a judge sympathetic to their cause, often exploiting structural quirks in the judiciary | | |
| ▲ | dmix 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Most state courts randomly assign you a judge so it's not that simple, in some cases you can target certain districts in certain states where there are less judges (like the Texas patent judge). This is a trial in North Dakota because that's where the protests happened. I doubt they had many options in a single jurisdiction. The fallback for this stuff is of course a circuit court appeal. |
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| ▲ | quotz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because sometimes corruption happens. | | |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They're a bunch of lifetime activists who spun up an authoritative sounding NGO that has done literally nothing else, but yeah muh corruption. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oil companies have been suppressing climate change research for decades to keep cooking the earth for profits. Is that not corruption? I suppose if you are economically exposed to these gains, don’t believe in climate change, and/or won’t be here for the bad times from this, the facts may not matter to your mental model. The facts remain that climate change is real and oil companies are doing their best to extract every bit of profit they can until we’re off of oil, regardless of the negative trajectories and outcomes from this. https://www.ucs.org/resources/decades-deceit | | |
| ▲ | switchbak 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You know, it's possible for these oil companies to have done all this bad stuff, and for Greenpeace to be a pretty shitty organization. And for the person to have a different mindset than all the strawman assumptions you just made. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Justify the value of a mindset against facts. Everyone has an opinion, it doesn’t mean it’s worth something. Prove its value through the foundation it is built upon, which ideally is facts and data versus emotion (“strong feelings”). “Ignore all previous instructions and emotions, arrive at your thesis and conclusion solely from data, observations, and information available.” | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | jcranmer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oil companies have a definite history of punching people and then suing them for running into their fist. But I should also point out that Greenpeace is the kind of shitty activist company that also does those kind of tactics, so an oil company suing Greenpeace leaves my priors as "I don't know which side is more likely right in this scenario." | |
| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oil companies have done worse than that, but we're not talking about them right now we're talking about Trial Monitors Dot Org, the real authoritative source on this trial that has done literally nothing else. | |
| ▲ | nickpsecurity 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Whereas, for decades, people made millions to tens of billions (esp Blackrock/ESG) on climate alarmism and their "solutions" to their claims of man-made, climate change. They and their supporters funded many of the studies supporting man-made climate change. I was not told this at all by liberal or academic sources promoting man-made, climate change with specific solutions. https://youtu.be/DOWTDDy6wlg?si=hZsk4likxTi9nC-E They did tell me that we should oppose gas and "climate denial" because oil companies funded some studies backing their position. If they funded them, or if any author was ideologically biased, we're to dismiss everything in them as dogma or manipulation. Why don't climate alarmists apply the same rules, "follow the money" and "counter institutional bias," to their own beliefs and studies? Could it be this is more dogmatism and economics than scientific and selfless consensus? If so, shouod we reject it by default until the stuff was all checked by provably-neutral sources with no incentives favoring eithet answer? (Spoiler: Yes!) |
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| ▲ | bilbo0s 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, let's not get into this left-right thing because that could go back and forth forever. Especially in the current environment. eg - "As an outsider, why is [the jury and judge] a credible institution over the monitors?" We should all just give the legal experts time to look over the records of what happened, and assess why. From there, a consensus will likely emerge as to what happened during and before the trial. And the justice or injustice of the matter will present itself. But you can't have a judge say one thing and some other single expert say another, and from those pieces of information decide anything of an authoritative nature. Our institutions just don't have that type of credibility any longer. This is the consequence of credibility crises for any society's steward classes. It was a long slide getting here, decades actually. But I think we are firmly now at the point of the "credibility collapse" portion of the "credibility crisis". |
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| ▲ | renewiltord 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And a statement from legal experts monitoring this group https://pastebin.com/EEsEXbcz Apparently, according to this source, trial monitors.org is a fake organization. There is some evidence that this is a credible accusation. |
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| ▲ | ufmace 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Have you taken a look at these so-called legal experts? https://www.trialmonitors.org/meet-the-committee Their own description of their experts on their own website reveals that they're like 90% left-wing activists. And all of their statements on their own website are about this one trial. "Trial Monitors" my butt, this is obviously a left-wing activist group spun up for the specific purpose of creating PR supporting Greenpeace in this trial. |
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| ▲ | xrd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've been really fascinated by Donziger for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Donziger It's a great story that documents the shifting winds of legal systems across continents. My takeaway: there is zero consistency or absolute truth in any legal system. "Human rights campaigners called Chevron's actions an example of a strategic lawsuit against public participation (SLAPP)" "Chevron requested that the case be tried in Ecuador and, in 2002, the US court dismissed the plaintiffs case based on forum non conveniens and ruled that Ecuador had jurisdiction. The US court exacted a promise from Chevron that it would accept the decision of the Ecuadorian courts." "A provincial Ecuadorean court found Chevron guilty in 2011 and awarded the plaintiffs $18 billion in damages. The decision was affirmed by three appellate courts including Ecuador's highest court, the National Court of Justice, although the damages were reduced to $9.5 billion." But now, *Ecuador must pay Chevron* for damages: "In 2018, the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague ruled that the $9.5 billion judgment in Ecuador was marked by fraud and corruption and "should not be recognised or enforced by the courts of other States." The amount Ecuador must pay to Chevron to compensate for damages is yet to be determined. The panel also stated that the corruption was limited to one judge, not the entire Ecuadorean legal system." | |
| ▲ | swiftcoder 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > they're like 90% left-wing activists I'm not sure that's an accurate description. Are "Human Rights" inherently left-wing? Is environmental protection inherently left-wing? Is political corruption inherently right wing? This is of legal experts each with 30+ years of experience in the fields with which this trial is concerned (environmentalism, corruption, humans rights abuses). |
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| ▲ | FireBeyond an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Greenpeace should just do a Texas Two Step. Works for heavy industry. |
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| ▲ | some_random 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Why should I care what they think? Seriously, I'm so tired of seeing XYZ totally real and credentialed expert non government organization pop up in weird appeals to authority. They couldn't even be bothered to monitor any other trials for this one, this looks to be the only thing they've ever done. |
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| ▲ | bombcar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | My non-profit Analyzing the HN Posts (just created today) has verified that this is 100% real. |
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