| ▲ | gniv 8 hours ago |
| Very insightful on how this corruption develops: "How can a group hold a worldview so at odds with the wider culture and
not appear to be greatly conflicted by it? The answer may lie in the distinction
between particularism and universalism. An individual develops social identities
specific to the social domains, groups and roles – and accompanying subcultures
– that he or she occupies (e.g. manager, mother, parishioner, sports fan).
[...] In the case of corruption, this myopia means that an otherwise ethically-minded
individual may forsake universalistic or dominant norms about ethical behavior
in favor of particularistic behaviors that favor his or her group at the expense of outsiders.
[...] This tendency to always put the ingroup above all others clearly paves
the way for collective corruption." |
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| ▲ | praptak 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| CS Lewis has a speech about the ingroups and corruption. His thesis is that the mere desire to be "in" is the greatest driver of immoral behavior: "To nine out of ten of you the choice which could lead to scoundrelism will come, when it does come, in no very dramatic colours. Obviously bad men, obviously threatening or bribing, will almost certainly not appear. Over a drink, or a cup of coffee, disguised as triviality and sandwiched between two jokes, from the lips of a man, or woman, whom you have recently been getting to know rather better and whom you hope to know better still—just at the moment when you are most anxious not to appear crude, or naïf or a prig—the hint will come. It will be the hint of something which the public, the ignorant, romantic public, would never understand: something which even the outsiders in your own profession are apt to make a fuss about: but something, says your new friend, which “we”—and at the word “we” you try not to blush for mere pleasure—something “we always do.”" https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/ |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd note that it is common for fraudsters to prey on members of ingroups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud | |
| ▲ | bsenftner 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In undergrad I did a formal Philosophy / Sociology study, where we were looking at human motivations. The research indicated that prestige is the number 1 driver of human motivation. Gaining prestige "trumps" ethics. Nobody likes to hear that. | | |
| ▲ | derbOac an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I think this is one reason it is important to cast unethical behavior in terms of lack of competency — that someone has to break the rules to get ahead because they're not competent enough to do things fairly or ethically. Empathy, while important in my opinion personally, often doesn't matter to certain people. So you have to decrease the prestige associated with unethical behavior, above and beyond it being unethical per se. | | |
| ▲ | neutronicus 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | In my opinion you've drawn exactly the wrong conclusion. Raising the stakes just increases the pressure to cheat (and not get caught). | |
| ▲ | DFHippie 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This. I think so much of the fascism and corruption afoot in the world comes from people who believe they deserve things they are incompetent to get. Their sense of entitlement is in conflict with their competence and unrestrained by concern for others. To soothe their ego wound they project their faults onto the person who has what they want. "It isn't my failure; it's your trickery!" Now instead of shame and impotence they feel righteous anger. | | |
| ▲ | bsenftner 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you are correct. I've spent extended time in uber wealth circles, and this describes the offspring mindset of the generations after wealth acquisition. Their incompetence matches their entitlement, and then they walk into nepotism. | |
| ▲ | macintux 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know that it's necessarily incompetence. The idea of "overproduction of elites" pops up frequently: https://www.niskanencenter.org/are-we-overproducing-elites-a... You may be supremely competent but unlucky enough to be born at the wrong time, to the wrong family, competing with the wrong people, to rise to the level that you feel you deserve. | | |
| ▲ | bsenftner 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I look at this re-occurring overproduction of elites concept, and feel like it has good points but seems to be welded like a weapon, soon followed by statements like "you're just unlucky, get over it." |
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| ▲ | sigwinch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, but I don’t think ethics is #2. Someone intrinsically motivated might be technically competent, autonomous and self-confident about his/her goals. I might skip your meetings about ethics; I might be too busy. | |
| ▲ | fellowniusmonk 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Did that ever replicate? Is prestige the number one motivator only statistically? In other words is it the number one motivator for 31% percent of the college students that were tested and lets say empathy was at 29%? Misanthropy and bald self interest gets overplayed I think. Often times because it allows bad actors to normalize and justify their own misanthropy. Presenting this kind of unbacked, unqualified anecdotal data is great for "edgy truthtellers" but also deeply poisoning the well. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > "Half of the harm that is done in this world Is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm; But the harm does not interest them." -T.S. Eliot | |
| ▲ | rramadass 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also Lord Acton - “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority; still more when you superadd the tendency of the certainty of corruption by authority.” | | |
| ▲ | spigottoday an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Corruption empowers, and absolute corruption empowers absolutely. It seems to me that some people adopt this perspective. | |
| ▲ | brazzy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Acton was, by the way, an ardent supporter of the Confederacy. In his opinion, the federal government curtailing the independence of states was a more significant act of oppression than slavery. | | |
| ▲ | bell-cot 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you're familiar with English history, then it's more understandable that Lord Acton (Catholic, and born a mere Baronet) was against powerful central authorities. And at least according to Wikipedia, Acton's positions on the Confederacy and slavery were very mainstream for English Catholics of the day. | | | |
| ▲ | delaminator 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think there's a war about that wasn't there? | | |
| ▲ | brazzy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, and he didn't like the outcome. Salient quote (from a letter to Robert E. Lee): "I saw in State Rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy. The institutions of your Republic have not exercised on the old world the salutary and liberating influence which ought to have belonged to them, by reason of those defects and abuses of principle which the Confederate Constitution was expressly and wisely calculated to remedy. I believed that the example of that great Reform would have blessed all the races of mankind by establishing true freedom purged of the native dangers and disorders of Republics. Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo. " | | |
| ▲ | sigwinch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are several lies in this. The objective of a Confederate victory was to enforce slavery farther south. Mexico was a few years away from collapsing. Brazil would emancipate within 20 years. Would the Confederacy last 20 years as the last slave state in the western hemisphere? | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Slavery would not have lasted, as the mechanization and industrialization of agriculture would soon make slave ownership uneconomical. Same with draft animals. |
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| ▲ | delaminator 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, he wasn't wrong. | | |
| ▲ | XorNot 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Whining about States rights to enslave people is certainly a take. Particularly when in context, the war was caused by the South acting to usurp abolition in the North via the legal system (i.e. Dredd Scott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott) The importance and applicability of "states rights" is always oddly narrow. | | |
| ▲ | b40d-48b2-979e an hour ago | parent [-] | | The importance and applicability of "states rights" is always oddly narrow.
It's also always ignoring the declarations of secession that all explicitly name slavery as the motivation. |
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| ▲ | getnormality 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I grew up with a very strong sentimental sense of moral universalism. I loved Beethoven's Ode to Joy and the romantic idea of universal brotherhood. But as I bank years in the adult world, as a worker and a neighbor, I've been progressively disillusioned. I don't find universalism to be a common viewpoint. I've found it to be very rare that anyone wants to be my "brother" or "sister". And sometimes those that seem to, end up being exploitative, callous, or strictly fair-weather. I'm not resentful or anything. I have a happy family and a few close-ish friends, and life feels full. But I can understand how the loneliness and coldness of the world makes people more particularist. People may think: "if the world acts like it owes me nothing, then what do I owe the world?" |
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| ▲ | nancyminusone 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | As an ideal, I have little doubt that most people believe this, it's just that it's something that's very easy to exploit, and you stand to gain a massive amount if you do. Its a real tragedy of the commons scenerio. With millions and billions of people and just one commons, there's plenty of tragedy to go around. It's still worth it to try - I find it difficult to give up completely. Most people I meet are not evil, and it's not like you're going to make it out alive at the end regardless. | |
| ▲ | js8 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But isn't it just a failure to communicate it? What if almost all other people are similarly disillusioned? Also, according to psychologists, one negative experience outweighs roughly five positive experiences of the same magnitude. So, as we get older, we might have tendency to accumulate negative experiences, and as a result become more cynical and less idealistic. And so it kind of perpetuates. | | |
| ▲ | lazide an hour ago | parent [-] | | That…. Just provides more evidence their world view is likely more objectively true? |
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| ▲ | kgwxd 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No need for the romance. We don't have to be "brothers". That outlook is divisive in nature anyway, and a weapon for abusers: "I thought we were brothers. Now, put aside your hesitations, and help me hurt these 'other' people." We can just be people. Don't hurt anyone, no one gets a pass to hurt you. Hurt someone, someone gets a pass to hurt you. Just you, not your "brothers". No matter the status of anyone involved. Severity, intent, and priors must play a factor in the level of returned hurt, but should never end with none, and death should be a last resort, but never completely off the table. That's the good-faith interpretation of the golden rule. Instead of the popular abuser and enabler (turn the other cheek) interpretations. They both call anyone who dares hold anyone accountable, a hypocrite for supposedly not following the golden rule. I don't care what story book it's in, or who said it, or when. It's a good rule on it's own merits. Doesn't mean everything that comes form the same source is equally valid. | |
| ▲ | WarmWash an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I realized as I got older that the ambient air of socialist/collectivist virtues that filled the all young people spaces wasn't because of some kind of special enlightenment achieved by the contemporary youth (as I deeply believed as a millennial riding high on the rise of the internet), but instead was just an easy ideology for a group of people with little to lose and a lot to gain. Underneath, people are overwhelmingly just in it for themselves, and judge others by how closely they align with their personal set of "whats best for me" ideals. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner an hour ago | parent [-] | | As someone from a constitutionally socialist and culturally collectivist society, the idea of American millennials embodying either seems to me like cosplay. You guys are so allergic to imposed social obligation you won’t even care for your own parents in their old age. What kind of “collectivism” could you possibly practice? Collectivism means the subordination of individual autonomy to the governance of the collective according to the needs of the collective. You’re a cog in a machine and your purpose is to serve the collective—starting with your family and radiating in rings out from there. I’m not sure Americans can even understand the collective mindset, much less practice it. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | We don't embody it, not by a long shot. We're old now. I'm speaking about 20 years ago, when getting any kind of peer or social circle respect had the prerequisite of subscribing to socialist utopian ideals, and it wasn't something that was hard to foster in America's dead-end job work culture (which is where you work when you are young). This is urban/suburban America, where most people live. From what I can tell this was the same with Boomers (they were the OG hippies afterall) and I see the same ideas in today's crop of young people. The youth however hold little sway over the direction of the country, they're not actually that invested, so by the time they are having an impact, many have already received their first shots of the euphoric side of American capitalism, a career that gives them power and money (after years of wading through dead-end/entry level hell). |
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| ▲ | rayiner 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is a good explanation of the Irish Machine in Chicago, corrupt white governments in the south, and Somalian welfare scams in Minnesota. It also explains the endemic corruption in tribal or clan-oriented societies like Afghanistan. Conversely, radical universalist regimes—even bad ones like the Taliban—can cut down on corruption. https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tackling-corruption.... It’s possible that the low levels of corruption in New England, compared to the rest of the country, is the legacy of the radically universalist Puritans. |
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| ▲ | Paracompact 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The author cites Arendt a fair bit, whose claim to fame was that entirely ordinary people could become voluntary instruments of atrocity. I think the belief of ordinary people most likely to dispose them to atrocity is that of prioritizing the ingroup. Once we believe that the members of one's own family, or company, or country, carry more moral value than others, we're doomed to a descent limited only by our ability to make these world-worsening trades. When I was a child, my dad would sometimes engage in small acts of corruption to please me or my brother. Taking somebody else's spot, telling white lies to get more than his share of a rationed good, that sort of thing. It never sat right with me. "Family first" has a very ominous ring to me. |
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| ▲ | reacweb 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, the slogan "America first" is a forerunner of the worst kind of imperialism. | | |
| ▲ | Quarrelsome 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | also "Make America Great Again" states that America is not currently great, which given its geo-political and economic position is just dishonest. Combined with "America First" you get an entirely clean canvas to be incredibly radical while cosplaying conservative. | | |
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| ▲ | brazzy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I think the belief of ordinary people most likely to dispose them to atrocity is that of prioritizing the ingroup. In my opinion, there is another tendency even more significant in that regard. Namely, the visceral desire to see "bad guys" deservedly suffer. Once people are in that frame of mind, they strongly resist any attempts to understand and maybe prevent whatever the "bad guys" did, let alone questions whether it was actually bad. This is what fuelled lynch mobs, it's what makes MAGA types cheer when ICE murders immigrants, and it's what makes certain leftist circles chant "eat the rich" along with images of guillotines and wood chippers. When you point out that poverty causes crime, rightists get mad at you for "excusing" or "justifying" crime, and when you point out that poverty causes support for far-right politicians, leftists get mad at you for "excusing" or "justifying" racism. Of course, this interacts with your point: when someone from the ingroup does something bad, people are willing to look at their reasons and if found lacking it is only the individual that should be punished, whereas the outgroup is never afforded the luxury of complexity, and the entire group is held responsible for each individual's sins. | |
| ▲ | lynx97 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What you describe is deepest human nature. We are tribal, period. No amount of morales will change that, no matter how it sits with you personally. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Some groups of people are much less tribal than others. | |
| ▲ | QuadmasterXLII 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wouldn’t that be horrible? If great masses of humans did act morally, and you didn’t have this justification that everyone does it? | |
| ▲ | saghm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I feel like this is a false binary. Acting more morally some of the time is surely possible (both as individuals and as a society); we have at least some level of ability to choose our actions independent of our nature. | |
| ▲ | anal_reactor 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, I was about to say this. A human is basically testicles with a brain attached, and the natural goal of life is to make sure that the genetically closest material survives and reproduces. That's why it's common to have stronger relationships with your family than with randoms on the internet. The more different the genetic material is, the less you care - individuals of different culture, of different race, of different species, of different kingdom of life, and finally viruses that are just strings of RNA floating around and nobody advocates about their rights because fuck that. | | |
| ▲ | saghm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > A human is basically testicles with a brain attached > The more different the genetic material is, the less you care - individuals of different culture, of different race, of different species, of different kingdom of life, and finally viruses that are just strings of RNA floating around and nobody advocates about their rights because fuck that The type of mental model that ignores 50% of the world's population due to having that same proportions of chromosomes not matching one's mental heuristic of what constitutes a human is what I'd say "fuck that" to, personally | | |
| ▲ | anal_reactor 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Okay but you have to admit that this is not how things functioned through majority of human history. | | |
| ▲ | XorNot 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The excessive focus on the nuclear family is itself a very recent trend that would otherwise be viewed as very odd by many if not most historical social organizing systems. Given the diversity of social models which have emerged globally, I have no idea how you could possibly make that claim. | | |
| ▲ | anal_reactor an hour ago | parent [-] | | I have no idea how to argue with you because it feels like we can't agree whether the Earth is obviously round or obviously flat. |
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| ▲ | DharmaPolice 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The more different the genetic material is, the less you care This is sort of true but it misses that we don't actually have DNA sensors built into our eyes. Instead we rely on heuristics like the Westermarck effect where we will (normally) tend to not find someone we lived with as a child attractive regardless whether they're a blood relation or not. We influence who (or what) is in our group through our behaviour, thoughts and associations. Look at the vast number of people who value their dog or cat over other human beings. It's unlikely their dog is closer to them, genetically speaking than any single human on Earth but they spend time and invest emotionally in their pet so they form a bond despite the genetic distance. If you see a child being hurt it likely invokes a slightly stronger emotional response if the child reminds you of someone in your own life. Often this will be someone who looks like you/your family (i.e. is genetically similar to you) but it might be some other kid you've grown attached to who is not related at all. So yes, we are driven by a calculating selfish gene mechanism but we're also burdened/gifted with a whole bunch of emotional and social instincts and rely on imperfect sensors not tricorders. It's why people can form group identities over all sorts of non-genetic characteristics (e.g. religion, nation, neighbourhood, sports team affiliation, political ideology, vi vs emacs, etc). | | |
| ▲ | anal_reactor an hour ago | parent [-] | | That's completely true because there are many aspects to what is "my group" and what isn't, but the key point is, people naturally care about their group more than they care about strangers. Thinking in terms of genetics provides a simple model that's good enough to explain a lot of phenomena. But yes, if you want to go deeper, you need to consider other factors - at first glance it seems like "culture" is the most important one. |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | An even worse sign is when we believe that the members of one's own family, or company, or country carry less moral value than others. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Uh oh, is this a reference to the radar meme/study? The one that conservatives keep claiming shows that liberals care more about out-groups than in-groups, but actually shows that either 1) many conservatives are illiterate and can't read a survey question, or 2) many conservatives literally don't care if right or wrong happens to acquaintances, strangers, their countrymen, humans in other countries, non-human animals, living things, etc? https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/moral-circles-heatmap | | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not a reference to any study. It's common sense, and you see it everywhere, on every scale and throughout history. What children do you think have a better future on average: Those whose parents love them or those whose parents hate them? What companies do you think succeed in the long run: Those with people who love working there or those with people who hate working there and want to jump ship? What countries become the best to live in: Those whose populace dream of moving abroad or those whose populace love their native land? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I guess I'm confused as to who is allegedly providing the counterargument that they should love out-groups more than in-groups? | | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's rare to see anybody literally arguing it, but it's more common than not in the real world. Oppression would be quite impossible throughout history if people weren't willing to oppress their own kind to the benefit of others. Even those arguing for loyalty to the in-group are rarely those who would themselves make any sacrifices for that group. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Oppression would be quite impossible throughout history if people weren't willing to oppress their own kind to the benefit of others. No what's far more common is that people change their perception (or have different perceptions) of who is "their own kind." You can actually see this happening in real time in the US with the emerging concept of "Heritage Americans." It's a way for losers and crybabies to narrow the scope of who is "their own kind" without having to openly declare that they simply don't love their countrymen. |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's complex. My wife's father-in-law immigrated from Italy to escape the destruction wrought by fascism in WWII and seek economic opportunity. He was part of a diaspora of a small village in Abbruzze that settled around Binghamton, NY. I would say that they all love Italy and they all love the U.S. Those are people I know very well because I have been to so many parties, dinners, and other events with them. I've seen the same thing with people from India, China, Sri Lanka, etc. I'd assume that it's the normal condition of immigrants. |
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| ▲ | delaminator 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's pretty insulting, mate. You should look into what Conservatives have actually done. It wasn't Liberals that took children out of factories, mines and chimneys. Clearly you've never read Hayek. Sure, post memes as proof. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well it's not really a meme, it's a study. And it was an earnest question as to whether GP was referencing the study. They claim they weren't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also it sounds like you're referring to the British political parties Liberals and Conservatives, not the lowercase-l and lowercase-c political philosophies by the same names, which the study is actually about. |
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| ▲ | LudwigNagasena 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The situation in which people exchange favors within their mutually beneficial personal networks seems to be the basic and typical way things function. It’s actually remarkable that we are able to resist this tendency and normalize fair and impartial institutions. |
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| ▲ | simonh 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The brain actually has specific neurological system that compartmentalise reasoning contexts in different social contexts, so we operate according to different sets of assumptions and rules of behaviour and reasoning in different kinds of situations. |
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| ▲ | justonceokay 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Unless you’re autistic | | |
| ▲ | simonh a few seconds ago | parent [-] | | True. I really don't know enough about it, but it may well be these functions are still there, but the impact on social cognition from autism render their effects basically irrelevant. |
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| ▲ | rramadass 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you share some resources on the above? | | |
| ▲ | simonh 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) and the temporoparietal junction (TPJ) both play roles in this. Not a neuroscientist, just going on my own reading. |
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| ▲ | derbOac an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I enjoyed this paper, and there's innumerable things that could be said about ingroup-outgroup dynamics and corruption. In my personal experiences with corruption with organizations, ingroup membership often becomes increasingly narrowly defined, and defined in such a way as to benefit a certain group of individuals at the expense of others. The underlying rationale is a narcissistic entitlement or rationalization for why one person or small group of people is deserving of disproportiate benefits or flexibility at the expense of others. It starts with some kind of distorted egocentric schema about others in a more distal way, and then becomes increasingly strict and more proximal. Narcissistic egocentrism is at the core; it only manifests more weakly at first, and then becomes stronger. The ingroup boundaries never stop shrinking, because there always has to be some justification for why that particular group — which was never really defined by the initial ingroup boundaries, the ingroup was only a proxy for themselves — is more deserving than others. |
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | dundercoder 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It’s like they worked at my last workplace |