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voidUpdate 5 hours ago

> “Boiling water” isn’t “water that happens to be boiling.” It’s a hazard, a cooking stage, a state of matter

I guess we'll have to disagree then, because "boiling water" is "water that's boiling" to me. It's not a different state of matter to "water", that would be "steam". It being a hazard doesn't mean it's a singular concept, same as "wet floor"

RHSeeger 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

To me it boils down to (pun intended)

> Traditional dictionaries skip almost all such phrases, because they contain spaces.

Yes, because they're phrases, not words. I don't even understand what's surprising about this. Sure, the entire article talks about how dictionaries contain _some_ phrases; but it's clear it's not many of them. Dictionaries are for words, not phrases.

kdheiwns 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, if "boiling water" is one word, what about boiling sugar? Boiling milk? Boiling volcano? Boiling soup?

Adding two words together creates a new and different concept. The permutations necessary to represent every concept ever formed by combining two or more different words would be endless.

Some of them on the list, like black hole, do make sense. That's a very distinct thing. It's not a hole in the conventional sense and it's not really black. Boiling water, though, is water. And it's boiling.

vidarh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[To be clear, the below is me agreeing with you]

Norwegian is almost as compound-happy as German, and we could've filled many volumes with compounds. But what generally happens for one of the compunds to enter the dictionary is that the compound needs to have a meaning that is non-obvious from the individual parts, at least to some people, and typically that the compound has a non-obvious meaning if interpreted as two separate words.

E.g. "akterutseilt" is an example. "Akterut" means behind, aft. "Seilt" means sailed. "Behind sailed" helps as a way to remember it, but it's not obvious whether it's strictly a sailing term, or means that you've been left behind or have left someone else behind.

In this case if you say someone has been akterutseilt, it means they've been metaphorically left behind, often by their own failure to keep up.

Those kinds of compounds deserve dictionary entries whether they are actually written in two words or one, because they function as a single unit however it is written.

I think black hole is a perfect example in English. And in fact, this is a compound that is written in two words in Norwegian as well, but is in Norwegian dictionaries despite that[1] as "svart hull".

[1] https://ordbokene.no/bm/svart%20hull

michaeld123 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

And I attempted to add your 'svart hull' note.

Skeime an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fun fact: I looked this up in the online version of the Duden (the predominant German dictionary). It does have an entry "Black Hole" (so the English term!) but not for "schwarzes Loch", which is the normal German term for it.

(In the printed versions, you might need to go to the Universalwörterbuch or so to find the English entry, it might not be in the normal "Die deutsche Rechtschreibung"; I have not checked.)

vidarh an hour ago | parent [-]

> Duden

Just the name gives me flashbacks to German-lessons in highschool.

michaeld123 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Great example — I added svart hull to the article as an illustration of a language that writes it as two words but still puts it in the dictionary because the meaning isn't obvious from the parts. That's exactly the instinct English lacks.

ben_w 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Adding two words together creates a new and different concept. The permutations necessary to represent every concept ever formed by combining two or more different words would be endless.

May I introduce you to the German language?

We have "gesundheitszeugnis" (health certificate) and "bärenstark" (strong as a bear), and of course "[der] Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän" ([the] Danube Steamship Navigation Company Captain) and "[Das] Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz" ([the] cattle marking and beef labeling supervision duties delegation law).

michaeld123 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Added a German/Norwegian section — but vidarh corrected me below: German doesn't 'remove the space,' the compound never had one. Adding a space changes the meaning or breaks the grammar. The article now reflects that.

vidarh 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

The issue with German as well as Norwegian is that a space creates a semantically distinct structure, so it's not that they remove the space, but that one wasn't there in the first place, and some of those compounds then become important enough for the dictionary.

Absolutely not all - there's a near unbounded set of possible compounds.

In Norwegian, we in fact have a compound for the incorrect separation of compounds: "orddelingsfeil" (word separation error). Actually, we have two - technically it's "særskrivingsfeil" (separate writing error), but "orddelingsfeil" is more common... We take this seriously.

The problem is that while some are definitely wrong, others change meaning.

E.g. "en norsk lærer" means "a Norwegian teacher" but "en norsklærer" means "a teacher of the subject Norwegian". There's an infinite set of possible -lærer compounds: If you create a new subject then a teacher of that subject is a <subject>lærer. Obviously they can't all go in the dictionary.

Some other examples:

"Røyk fritt" means "smoke freely" while "røykfritt" means "smokefree". "Steke ovn", means "to fry an oven", while "stekeovn" means "oven". These two belong in the dictionary because they are so common and that though technically you can use "ovn" and "fri"/"fritt" to form a near infinite number of other common forms as well, in practice the number of common forms that use them is quite limited.

The key part is that most compounds in languages like German or Norwegian will only have one valid way of writing them. Add spaces, and you usually end up with something ungrammatical or with an entirely different meaning.

Whereas in English whether or not a word can be written with a space, with a hyphen, or combined much more often changes over time, and can differ in different places at different times, as the <separate words> -> <hyphenated> -> <compound> pipeline in English is slow and arbitrary and not necessarily reflecting a change in meaning.

michaeld123 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

I just adapted your comments into the paragraph starting with "German". Hopefully accurately.

account42 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And we don't expect dictionaries to contain every compound word you could come up with in German either.

ben_w 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not the ones that someone could come up with, just the ones people do use.

traveler1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Boiling point?

5o1ecist 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> to me

Your "to me" is actually problematic, because it legitimizes this nonsensical idea and turns words and their meaning into something purely individualistic, which cannot end well for the current, but even more so for the next generation.

I can confirm that "boiling water" definitively is "water that's boiling" and that two words, which are supposedly one word, definitely are not one word.

globular-toast 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, but the nice thing about natural language is, it doesn't matter what you think. People talk because they want to communicate something. You can try to talk your pet language at other people, but you will fail at communicating. So things have a happy way of sorting themselves out.

5o1ecist 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

Actually it does matter what I think, since I am user of language and, unlike many others, I actually care.

When it comes to using, spreading and understanding language, every single human being matters, because every single human being acts as a multiplier.

What also matters, is that there are far too many people who are, despite having graduated schools, barely able to read written words.

These are the very same people who also want to convince everybody else that it does not matter.

gcanyon 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would have agreed with you before they pointed out that "frozen water" gets a word: ice. Honestly, I think it's reasonable: people deal with frozen water far more than they do boiling water, but it changes it from a case of "what are they talking about?" to "okay, where do we draw the line?" for me.

uhhhhhhh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, being pedantic, my favorite hobby:

Frozen water represents a state change and that different state commonly gets its own word: ice/water/steam equates to solid/liquid/gas

Boiling/freezing water represents the state of the liquid, not the transition. Its descriptive. Water boils away into steam, or freezes into ice.

Should we consider luke-warm water also singular? What about body-temperature water? cool water? It makes sense not to treat adjectives/descriptive words combined with the subject as singular because the definition already exists in the root of the words (meaning of adjective word + meaning of subject word). Blue clay is another example, why would that be a singular?

It really only makes sense to me in the rare cases where the combination words represent something different or non obvious than the combined meanings of the two words (i.e to 'give up')

dghf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But water that has boiled into gas also gets a word: steam.

As far as I'm aware, there is no separate word for freezing water -- i.e. water that is very cold and will, if it continues to get colder (and has something to crystallise around), turn into ice.

So the symmetry seems complete: ice -> freezing water -> water -> boiling water -> steam.

epolanski 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Freezing water is already at or below 0, it doesn't need to get "colder" to turn into ice, it simply needs to exchange the energy with the environment and rearrange in crystals.

Basically as it gets colder water exchanges energy with the environment and gets colder.

But once it reaches freezing temperature, it can no longer get colder and all the energy is used for the formation of crystals.

Someone an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Basically as it gets colder water exchanges energy with the environment and gets colder.

> But once it reaches freezing temperature, it can no longer get colder and all the energy is used for the formation of crystals

Water at freezing temperature can get much colder without freezing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling:

“Water normally freezes at 273.15 K (0.0 °C; 32 °F), but it can be "supercooled" at standard pressure down to its crystal homogeneous nucleation at almost 224.8 K (−48.3 °C; −55.0 °F).”

306bobby an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, is that not the same with boiling water? It doesn't need to get "hotter" to turn to steam, it needs to exchange the energy with the environment to gasify

dghf an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

So, I got the physics wrong. Apologies and thanks for the correction.

But the semantic point still stands. Boiling water is still water -- in the specific sense of H2O in its liquid state -- while ice is not. The complaint that frozen water has a single-word synonym while boiling water does not is making a false equivalence.

NiloCK 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Steam?

Ekaros 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Boiling water is mostly same as boiling anything. So I would just have "boiling". No need for "boiling water". I see no reason why boiling water could not just be covered by whatever general boiling entry covers.

m-schuetz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some other words that are sorely missing from dictionaries: "Warm water", "hot water", "cold water", "dirty water"

manarth 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As an idiomatic expression, "Hot water" = "trouble".

Are there idiomatic expressions for warm/cold/dirty water, which mean something other than a literal adjective describing the temperature or condition of water?

jolmg 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

> hot water - n. a difficult or dangerous situation

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hot%20water

> warm water - n. an ocean or sea not in the arctic or antarctic regions

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warm%20water

> cold water - n. depreciation of something as being ill-advised, unwarranted, or worthless. e.g. threw cold water on our hopes

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cold%20water

Seems that what makes sense to be in dictionaries is already there.

epolanski 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> dirty water

Depending on the context you got sewage, slush, runoff, murk, waste etc.

jolmg 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

The point is that it would be something different than what the words describe. I get the sense that I may have heard it like on an Italian mob show or something in a phrase like "getting in dirty water with you" meaning "colluding". Though, I may be misremembering because I can't find results online that would corroborate.

Beijinger 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"a state of matter", no boiling water is not a "state of matter"

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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RiverCrochet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What's ice cream then?

LgWoodenBadger 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

And even more confounding, what's "water ice?"

https://www.ritasice.com

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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adzm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, this article brings up a good point per se, but then defeats itself with nonsensical analysis and examples

georgefrowny 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It used to be iced cream, which is more descriptive.

Ice cream is a shortened pronunciation.

kllrnohj 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

When was called it "iced cream"? The first published recipe for ice cream in 1718 called it "ice cream", not "iced cream". The first recorded mention in English at all was in 1671 and there, again, it was "ice cream", not "iced cream".

globular-toast 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yep, all of the following make perfect sense to me, they're just non-idiomatic:

- Don't put your hand in water that's boiling,

- Add the pasta to water that's boiling,

- That saucepan is full of water that's boiling.

If "boiling water" were a distinct word, all of these sentences would change meaning compare to their idiomatic counterparts.

jonplackett 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m so glad I’m not going insane. I don’t see any examples on that site that I agree are ‘one word’. Sure they’re singular concepts but so what? Are we going to have singular words to describe all adjective noun pairs now?

kllrnohj 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Really? none are one word? How about "of course"?