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godelski 6 hours ago

Firefox does what some people want, people complain. Firefox does what other people want, people complain. Firefox does what both people want, people complain.

I'm sorry, but we'll never get corporations to do what we want if we don't throw them the smallest bone when we get our way. You need positive reinforcement too, not just negative. If it's all negative they just stop caring and you get companies lot Google who just don't give a shit anymore.

And yes, there are some AI features I like and I want in the browser. I get a lot of utility out of translation as well as semantic search of my history. I don't want agents in my browser but get, Firefox is giving us choices.

Look, no one needs to like Firefox, but let's also be honest, it's the best we got right now. Google, Apple, and Microsoft are shoving agents down our throats and putting us in walled gardens that are getting harder and harder to break from. I don't care what flavor of chromium you use, Google is still using it to control the way the web works. Everyone loves to say how chromium is has greater coverage of standards but never takes a second to question who sets those standards.

I'm sorry guys, that's the state of things now. You can't fight Google by switching to chromium. It's still their vehicle to eat the internet. Our choices right now are Safari, Firefox, and maybe ladybird. It's slim pickings and nothing is close to perfect. At this point it doesn't even matter if Mozilla is evil, because at least they're the enemy of our enemy. Google is keeping them on life support to avoid monopoly claims but how long will they need that?

So what, we're just going to hand the keys of the kingdom to the guys selling artisian turd sandwiches because what, there isn't enough mayo on your ham sandwich? Because you don't like ham?

We got a win. Celebrate. Take the break from being cynical. There's bigger battles to fight and there'll be more tomorrow. Take the night off and don't be a sore winner

bartvk 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nowadays, I avoid certain topics. For instance any post about macOS becomes one giant complaint.

Thanks for staying positive. I like Firefox, I think it's a very nice holdout against adware.

PunchyHamster 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So what, we're just going to hand the keys of the kingdom to the guys selling artisian turd sandwiches because what, there isn't enough mayo on your ham sandwich? Because you don't like ham?

Firefox is the artisan turd sandwich. They are burning dev time on features barely anyone asked, while bleeding market share for last decade

glenstein an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This is a narrative that got hallucinated into existence by comment sections. Most of the effort goes towards the core browser and always has, side bets have found their ways into headlines and comment sections from users overestimating the resources necessary to build them out while underestimating the scale of regular work like security patches and performance improvements.

Orygin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They are burning dev time on features barely anyone asked

Got a source for that? HackerNews is *not* representative of the average browser user.

account42 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The average browser user isn't using Firefox and won't be any time soon.

godelski 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Okay, so in your version who is Google? And chromium?

account42 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If I smash your window every day but one day after being asked to stop again and again I decide to just leave poop on your front porch instead, should you not complain about the poop?

Malicious compliance is no compliance, it is still malicious.

mock-possum 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Corpos are not entitled to bones.

TiredOfLife 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The reason people complain is because Mozilla claims it's better and more pure than everybody else.

prmoustache an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> people complain is because Mozilla claims it's better

Well they are far from perfect but experience has shown that everybody else is worse.

godelski 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well "everybody else" is Google. I'm not sure that bar is even high enough to trip over.

mort96 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Who has expressed a desire for Firefox to become "an AI browser"?

Because that's the source of the complaints. I don't want to use an "AI browser", kill switch or not. If this "AI browser" dies because of their mission to destroy community goodwill, good. I'm sick of giving the benefit of the doubt every time they royally fuck up. This situation where they're the steward of the only non-Google browser is not tenable, something needs to change.

prmoustache 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Is it so hard to understand that the features person A wants are not necessarily the same as person B yet a company/foundation would be interested in providing a complete featureset for both A and B?

I don't need themes nor having my url bar serving search. I am not interested in an AI agent in my browser yet I welcome traduction features, do I have to shit on every company developping a software that has some features because I don't want them?

I am much more pragmatic: are these features easy to ignore/disable, do they largely increase the resources needed (disk, memory, cpu) even when not used, do these introduce bloat, etc.

I wasn't interested in pocket, I was just using a combination of firefox forks or disabling it on the devices I was using. That is the whole point of open source software.

godelski 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

  > This situation where they're the steward of the only non-Google browser is not tenable, something needs to change.
So what, you're going to help Google shove the knife in deeper? Idk man, seems like a bad way to fight Google.

But honestly it just feels like you didn't even read my comment. I'm sorry that it's a lot, but I'm petty sure people can handle 10-30 seconds of reading. I even said it doesn't matter if Mozilla is evil. How do you turn that into me giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm literally just arguing that there's slim pickings and to not help our bigger enemy to kill their enemies. It doesn't matter if their enemies ate evil, you're just helping the bigger evil get bigger and consolidate power. I'm saying "there's more important problems right now, not be fucking dumb and get distracted or before you know it you'll lose your head"

mort96 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Letting Mozilla torpedo the only non-Google browser is also a bad way to fight Google. It's looking bleak. The only hope is that Mozilla dies and someone more serious picks up the mantle. Not sure who that would be though.

glenstein an hour ago | parent | next [-]

They're not torpedoing it. It's a bizarre fatalistic tone that got manufactured in comment sections.

They spend more on developing the browser now than they ever have in their history, and they remain the most successful independently financed browser in the history of ever. Other major browsers have to be financed by trillion dollar companies based on independent revenue streams.

The predicament right now is that AI might displace search, which is a problem if you make money from search licensing. It's not yet clear what the new normal is going to be in an AI first paradigm. But what is clear is that doing nothing means the world will pass you by when everything changes.

godelski 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But that's not what happened. That's not the context of the thread. The battle was won. So celebrate. The war may not be over but it's not like we lost.

  > someone more serious picks up the mantle.
Let's cross that bridge when/IF we get there. But until then, maybe don't set the stage for them to take up that mantle. If all we do is complain then obviously they'll just learn to ignore us.

So don't sour the victory, it'll cost you the war

mort96 4 hours ago | parent [-]

No battle has been won. Firefox's market share is dwindling, and they're going full steam ahead with turning Firefox into an "AI browser". Yes, they are adding an option to turn off AI features, but I don't want to use an "AI browser with AI features disabled", I want to use a normal web browser. Mozilla is not delivering that.

Note that just not bogging down Firefox with AI features is not enough here. Firefox market share has been going downhill for most of my life, long before they appointed this new AI-crazed CEO. I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear that it's not Mozilla.

prmoustache 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Firefox market share has been going downhill for most of my life

Firefox market shares are the best of any non OEM device[1] and is beating competition from a number of OEM browser (like Samsung's one on mobile) and is fairly competitive compared to the desktop version of Safari (only 1% below on desktop market share).

Yes market share have been going downhill but mostly because they were abnormaly high in late 90's early 2000's due to:

- the inertia of being born from the ashes of Netscape, which was the default browser at the beginning of eternal september.

- it had its highest market share at a time when its strongest competition was Internet Explorer: a magnet for malwares.

So its market shares are quite good actually. Note that Opera (and now Vivaldi) never got close despite being appreciated by many.

[1] yes it comes with many linux distro but it is sold with virtually zero device.

glenstein an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This narrative gets endlessly repeated in comment sections despite not even pretending to align with the factual record. The side bets era from roughly 2020-present did not retroactively cause the market share losses from 2010-2015.

The problem with this revisionist history is that it's completely helpless to address the actual dynamics that led to the rise of Chrome, and attempts to tell the entire story in terms of add-ons tweaks to the Firefox user interface, even though that has nothing to do with the change in market share. The major drivers were the world's most visited website pushing a new browser and preloading it as a default on billions of mobile devices. Mozilla could have executed perfectly and still been sidelined.

But a few bad new cycles in the early 2020s crystallized a negative attitude that perfectly fed the hedonic skepticism of Internet comment sections, and so an echo chamber emerged of people reinterpreting that history as if purchasing Pocket or running a VPN somehow retroactively caused all the market share change.

Nobody's ever bothered to like look at the factual timeline, but once they hear it repeated enough they get confident enough to repeat it themselves and on and on the snowball goes.

manphone 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

That may even be true, but many commenters here are saying these things because they actually happened to them and then they switched off of Firefox because it pissed them off. (Myself included) So when you say this is a comment or narrative it’s the commenters you’re talking to and you’re talking past them in a way that is confusing. I’m telling you that I hated the Firefox changes and I finally turned to another fork. This has nothing to do with a narrative.