tux1968 4 hours ago

Yes, that is a real problem. But it doesn't justify arguing uncritically or unrealistically in other areas. I think people should be free to do anything they want with their own devices. They should be able to install any software they want. That's very different than demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire. ie. You should be able to install your own operating system, you don't get to tell them how theirs should operate.

There are legitimate concerns being addressed by these feature restrictions.

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1718627440 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You should be able to install your own operating system

So you draw the line between the bootloader and the OS. Other people draw the line between the OS and applications. Most (nearly all) people can't write either, so for them it is just part of the device.

> you don't get to tell them how theirs should operate.

I paid for it, and I allow it to be legal in the jurisdiction I (partly) control. So it is not only theirs anymore.

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Ajedi32 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire

IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want.

Unfortunately, they've already done a lot of things to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. SafetyNet, locked bootloaders, closed-source system apps, and now they're (maybe) trying to layer "you can't install apps we don't approve of" on top of that.

	▲	tux1968 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> IMO the way this should work is that Google can make their software however they want provided they don't do anything to stop me from changing it to work the way I want. That's exactly how it is. You're free to get your soldering iron out, or your debugger and reverse engineer anything you want. I don't mean to argue unfairly, but all we're talking about here is the relative ease with which you can do what you want to do. How easy do they have to make it? As for their software, as delivered, there are literally an infinite number of ways that it stops you from changing it. Maybe you want everything in Pig Latin, or a language you made up yourself. Do they have to design around this desire? Do they have to make this easy to do?

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yjftsjthsd-h 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> They should be able to install any software they want. That's very different than demanding someone make their software exactly how you desire. ie. You should be able to install your own operating system, you don't get to tell them how theirs should operate.

I don't think the distinction exists the way you're trying to describe. If I should be allowed to install any software I want, surely that includes any .apk I want? Conversely, someone could make the exact claim one step down the chain and argue that you don't get to tell them how their firmware should work and if you want to install your own OS you should just go buy a fab, make your own chips, write your own firmware, and make your own phone. And that's absurd, because users should be allowed to run their own software without being forced to ditch the rest of the stack for no reason.

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tux1968 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No, I don't think you have the inerhent right to install any apk you desire, if their OS is designed to prohibit it. You should be free to try to alter their OS any way you want, but they should not have to make it easy.

And the argument is the same lower down the stack. You shouldn't be able to tell someone how to design their firmware.

The only problem is where the law prohibits us from trying to undo these restrictions, or make modifications ourselves. It's government that restricts us, and we should focus our efforts there.

	▲	yjftsjthsd-h 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> No, I don't think you have the inerhent right to install any apk you desire, if their OS is designed to prohibit it. You should be free to try to alter their OS any way you want, but they should not have to make it easy. > And the argument is the same lower down the stack. You shouldn't be able to tell someone how to design their firmware. Earlier, you claimed, > They should be able to install any software they want. but it sounds like actually you only mean that users should be allowed to futilely attempt it, not that there should actually be allowed to run software at will. If the firmware only allows running a signed OS, and that OS only allows running approved apps, then the user is not able to install any software they want.