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readams 2 hours ago

The concept of addiction seems be quite diluted at this point. Does it really make sense to say that, because you're trying to make a product that people like, that this means you're addicting them (intentionally or otherwise) to your product?

Food should not taste good? Books should not be entertaining? Don't try to make your video game fun, or some people may become addicted.

skrtskrt an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Good things there are entire fields of medical experts working to understand the exact mechanisms and harm and we're not leaving it up to you.

Not to mention how often we keep catching these companies with explicit policies to make people never want to leave the app.

n4r9 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

According to Wikipedia

> Addiction is ... a persistent and intense urge to use a drug or engage in a behavior that produces an immediate psychological reward, despite substantial harm and other negative consequences

Immediate psychological reward = dopamine hits from likes and shares

Harm and other negative consequences = anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, FOMO, less connection with friends and family, etc...

Food is not as easy to make addictive because the psychological reward diminishes as you get full. The exception to this is people with an eating disorder, who use eating as a way to cope with or avoid difficult feelings.

overgard an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, think of it this way. You could make a meal out of healthy, fresh, whole foods cooked expertly. Or you could give someone a bag of Doritos. Nobody on "My 600lb Life" got there because they were eating great food. They were eating a lot of bad food that doesn't fire satiety signals in their head.

Addictive and Good are not exactly the same thing -- something can be objectively good and not addictive, and vice versa.

dlev_pika an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Diluted only if one doesn’t know the definition of addiction

scottious 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this feels like a false equivalence and slippery slope fallacy.

Clearly things like cigarettes and hard drugs are bad and need very heavy regulations if not outright banned. There are lots of gray areas, for sure, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take things on a case-by-case basis and impose reasonable restrictions on things that produce measurable harm.

Whether or not social media does produce that measurable harm is not my area of expertise, but that doesn't mean we can't study it and figure it out.

Gormo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> this feels like a false equivalence and slippery slope fallacy.

The slippery slope fallacy is purely a logical fallacy, meaning that it's fallacious to argue that any movement in one direction logically entails further movements in the same direction. Arguing that a slippery slope empirically exists -- i.e. that observable forces in the world are affecting things such that movement in one direction does manifestly make further movement in that direction more likely -- is absolutely not an instance of the slippery slope fallacy.

A concrete instance of the metaphor itself makes this clear: if you grease up an inclined plane, then an object dropped at the top of it will slide to the bottom. Similarly, if you put in place legal precedents and establish the enforcement apparatus for a novel state intervention then you are making further interventions in that direction more likely. This is especially true in a political climate where factional interest that actually are pushing for more extreme forms of intervention manifestly are operating. Political slippery slopes are a very observable phenomenon, and it is not a fallacy to point them out.

> Whether or not social media does produce that measurable harm is not my area of expertise, but that doesn't mean we can't study it and figure it out.

It's true that the fact that it isn't your area of expertise doesn't mean we can't study it and figure it out.

Rather the thing that does mean that we can't study it and figure it out is that what constitute "harm" is a normative question, not an empirical one, and the extent to which there is widespread consensus on that question is a bounded one -- the more distant we get from evaluating physical, quantifiable impacts, and the more we progress into the intangible and subjective, the less agreement there is.

And where there is agreement in modern American society, it tends in the opposite direction of what you're implying here: apart from very narrow categories, most people would not consider mere exposure to information or non-physical social interactions to be things that can inflict harm, at least not to a level sufficient to justify preemptive intervention.

scottious an hour ago | parent [-]

okay it's not a slippery slope, but it's something similar (that's why I said "feels like"). He's trying to establish a continuum of things that have a variety of addictive properties in an attempt to discredit the whole idea of addiction ("Don't try to make your video game fun, or some people may become addicted")..

> apart from very narrow categories, most people would not consider mere exposure to information or non-physical social interactions to be things that can inflict harm

That's an extremely disingenuous interpretation of social media. Huge straw man. We're talking about infinite-scrolling A/B tested apps that are engineered to keep eyeballs on the screen at the first and foremost priority for the primary benefit of the company, not the user.

kjksf 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

As far as I can tell, even in US, the most litigious nation in the world, you can't SUCCESSFULLY sue e.g. a cigarette maker or alcohol maker for making you addicted.

(I emphasize successfully because of course you can sue anyone for anything. The question is what lawsuits are winnable based on empirical data of what lawsuits were won).

If you could, that would be the end of those businesses. The addiction is beyond dispute and if every alcoholic could win a lawsuits against a winemaker, there would be no winemakers left.

In that context it seems patently absurd that you could sue Facebook for making you addicted.

It would be absurd to create a law that makes it possible without first making such laws for alcohol and cigarettes.

It's also patently absurd that we (where "we" here is leftist politicians) are allowing open drug dealing in populated areas of San Francisco and yet this is what we discuss today and not politician's systemic failure to fix easily fixable problems for which we already have laws making them illegal.

_3u10 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Oddly the countries that don’t do this have far better outcomes.

Imagine being allowed to have a beer outside, or after 2 am, oh the humanity. Surely such a society would devolve immediately into chaos.

What if the government wasn’t meant to be a strange parent that let you kill your kids but felt having a beer outside was too much freedom. It might just lead to being the happiest country on earth.

not_a_bot_4sho an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Oddly the countries that don’t do this have far better outcomes

Go on

dlev_pika an hour ago | parent | next [-]

For example, smoking tobacco in Japan… wait a minute

_3u10 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

https://news.gallup.com/interactives/248240/global-emotions....

refulgentis an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Imagine being allowed to have a beer outside, or after 2 am, oh the humanity.

Where do you live that this is not possible?

(I know you’re speaking loosely, I.e. you mean “where I live bars have to stop serving alcohol at 2 Am” but it’s so loose that there’s 0 argument made here, figured I’d touch on another aspect leading to that, other replies cover the others. Ex. The 2 AM law isn’t about you it’s about neighborhoods with bars)

_3u10 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

i don't live there anymore, but BC or, Dubai as another example although Dubai is oddly more lax about liquor than most of the US or Canada. It's also about liquor stores which have to close at midnight, so its not just about neighborhoods with bars.

Where I live 5 grams of coke, 10 grams of weed, is legal, you can buy and drink alcohol 24/7, and bars can be open as late as they want even with outdoor patios, even in front of the Presdiential Palace. And you can drink outside on the street. Its also the happiest country on earth. (As measured by happiness, not some lame proxy like public healthcare)

I would never again live in the global north, or a country that lacked western values.

fullshark 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's people with unhealthy relationships with both food and video games and I'm comfortable saying they suffer from addiction.

gensym an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Indeed. As a wise man once said:

"Who is to say what's right these days, what with all our modern ideas and products?"