| ▲ | mr_mitm 3 hours ago |
| My impression is that almost no one denies the warming itself, just the link to greenhouse gasses. That link is unfortunately much harder to prove than rising temperatures by itself. The proof is there nonetheless, but it's easier to cast doubt on it, and that's what certain groups have been doing. |
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| ▲ | Windchaser 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I've seen the full-court denial: - it's not warming, or not significantly - if it's warming, it's not because of humans, (or) - if it's warming, it's beneficial - if it's warming because of humans and that's bad, there's nothing we can do about it ETA: honorary mention for "what about China?" People I've argued about this with will switch interchangeably between these. Press them hard enough on one issue, and they'll just switch to another. It's a game of whack-a-mole. |
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| ▲ | tencentshill 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Or "Why does 2 degrees matter?" Because when were 4 degrees cooler, NYC was under 1000 feet of ice. We really don't want to find out what 4 degrees hotter is like. | | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Same here. I'd also add "It's warming, caused by humans, harmful, but mitigating it would be even more harmful." Basically, anyone capable of thinking about it logically has at this point reached the conclusion that it's real. Anyone arguing otherwise is therefore necessarily not thinking about it logically, and you have to expect things like shifting claims. |
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| ▲ | degobah 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But POTUS 5 months ago: "If you look back years ago in the 1920s and the 1930s, they said global cooling will kill the world. We have to do something. Then they said global warming will kill the world, but then it started getting cooler. So now they just call it climate change because that way they can't miss. Climate change because if it goes higher or lower, whatever the hell happens, there's climate change. It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion. Climate change, no matter what happens, you're involved in that. No more global warming, no more global cooling. All of these predictions made by the United Nations and many others, often for bad reasons, were wrong. They were made by stupid people that have cost their country's fortunes and given those same countries no chance for success." https://rollcall.com/factbase/trump/transcript/donald-trump-... |
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| ▲ | ASalazarMX 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > "that have cost their country's fortunes and given those same countries no chance for success." This is a weird statement coming from Trump. I wouldn't think his base would care for improving the lives and economies of other countries, specially undeveloped countries. | | |
| ▲ | stevenwoo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He frequently has campaign rallies and press conferences where he makes statements on both sides of the issue, though if the audience is limited he will tailor the message so only the side present hears the argument in their favor. Every post speech interview I've seen and heard from Trump supporters discount every thing he says that they personally disagree with and heartily approve everything he says that they agree with. Somehow he has insulated his own actions/words and his supporters, and it makes it difficult to reason with these supporters when you bring it up to them - it's quite uncanny. | |
| ▲ | toast0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, he's saying everyone else who tried to do something about climate change had bad results, so let's do nothing and we'll be better off. Doesn't seem weird to say that if you want to do nothing. |
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| ▲ | mattgrice 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I didn't even think the link to greenhouse gases is denied any more. The merchants of doubt ran out the clock and what I hear from the former deniers I know is that it is too expensive and too late to do anything now, being warmer will be nicer, and CO2 is a fertilizer. |
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| ▲ | MiddleEndian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A friend of mine says he was convinced by https://xkcd.com/1732/ |
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| ▲ | tonylemesmer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even the qualification "in the last 10,000" years gives the doubters something else to dismiss global warming. |
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| ▲ | izzydata 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are people that believe the warming, but don't believe it matters because the Earth used to be much hotter at some point in the past so it is a natural cycle. Yet they fail to realize that humans didn't exist then so there is no good reason to believe an Earth that hot can support human life. |
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| ▲ | phkahler 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >> My impression is that almost no one denies the warming itself, just the link to greenhouse gasses. I fall in that category. My suspicion is that water vapor from air travel is by far the biggest contributor. I saw the blue skys after 9/11. I read the NASA guys that said daily temperature range increased measurably. I saw the blue skys again during Covid19. I'm also of the opinion that anyone looking at historical data only going back 200,000 years or less is missing the larger picture. Sea levels are NOT at historic highs, we should expect them to rise further before receeding. We should expect glaciation again if we don't do anything, but speeding up warming IMHO is more likely to trigger glaciation that to "push through" whatever causes it and break the cycle (which would be a good thing). So as a long-term thinker all this hype is just that. If you don't have a plan to end the glacier cycle you're just making a big deal out of a small change in time-scale due to reasons (CO2 vs H2O) that may well be the wrong ones. |
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| ▲ | 16bytes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not to be contrarian, but if you cared, you could easily rule out your suspicions. It's not even worth it to say why or how, since not even doing rudimentary research means that you aren't interested in developing a well-informed opinion. | | |
| ▲ | phkahler 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >> Not to be contrarian, but if you cared, you could easily rule out your suspicions. That's just false. You might try to rule it out yourself to see. My comments here and the responses demonstrate that it's a waste of time to argue against people in the purity cycle of global warming. My position is one of moderation not denial - and I'm downvoted, told I don't care, and I haven't done even the minimum of research. Pffft. HN is not what it used to be. | | |
| ▲ | 16bytes an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | You are being down-voted not because of some imaginary "purity cycle", but because you discard without reasoning a vast amount of evidence to the contrary of your hypothesis. You've heard of the saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? Holding a hypothesis of water-vapor from air travel being the primary driver of warming trends is extraordinary. Invoking the oft-repeated "do your own research" rhetorical crutch and referring to scientific consensus as "hype" doesn't help your case. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It took me about five seconds to find this: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/why-do-we-blame-climate-chan... Do you have any reason to believe otherwise besides a couple of anecdotes about looking at the sky and short-term temperature variations? |
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| ▲ | Windchaser 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > My suspicion is that water vapor from air travel is by far the biggest contributor. Have you calculated the water vapor generated from air travel, and compared that to the water vapor already generated by the water cycle? (just normal evaporation from lakes/rivers/oceans/plants) Even as back-of-napkin math, this should be a pretty easy sanity check. I think you're off by a few orders of magnitude here, but I also don't want to discourage you from adopting a "check for yourself" mindset. | | |
| ▲ | phkahler 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >> Have you calculated the water vapor generated from air travel, and compared that to the water vapor already generated by the water cycle? I've SEEN the effects with my own eyes. You can also see contrails seeding cloud formation on some days. Then there's the fact that these extra clouds are formed and dissipate on a 24 hour cycle, so part of the day they let in sunlight and part of the night they trap heat. These effects are significant and there is little research on the bigger picture effects of this (that I've seen). | | |
| ▲ | gzread 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | How significant? Give me a number. What percentage of all the clouds in a day come from planes? | |
| ▲ | kibibu 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Clouds reflect radiant heat back into space. Contrary to your claim, "global dimming" was a very active research space for a long time, and in fact the water vapour and other airborne pollutants likely masked the impact of global warming. |
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