| ▲ | Magnus Carlsen Wins the Freestyle (Chess960) World Championship(fide.com) |
| 143 points by prophylaxis 5 hours ago | 59 comments |
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| ▲ | nilslindemann 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
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| ▲ | freetime2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How long do chess players typically remain at their peak for? According to wikipedia, Magnus is currently 35. Is it impressive to be winning at 35? Would we expect to see his performance drop off in the next 5-10 years? Even if he is still capable mentally and physically, I would think the stress of training and competing at that level must get old after a while. |
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| ▲ | porphyra 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Anand reached world #1 ranking at 38, managed to win a world championship and defend the title for a decade in his late 40s, and remains in #13 in his 50s right now. | |
| ▲ | xmprt 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Magnus' longevity has more to do with his willingness to continue competing than his actual skill. He's been pretty vocal about his issues with FIDE so I can see a world where he stops participating in FIDE events to focus on non-FIDE events that he enjoys more. He's already withdrawn from the Candidates which qualifies you for the World Championship. | |
| ▲ | flaviolivolsi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Kasparov remained the n.1 player until his retirement at 42, we can likely expect no less from Magnus | |
| ▲ | bmurphy1976 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Magnus is in uncharted territory here. We won't really know the answer to this question for quite some time. | |
| ▲ | nilslindemann 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Like Lasker, Carlsen will still play with 60+. | |
| ▲ | chilicat 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the stress of training and competing at that level must get old after a while. The stress of elite competition clearly has a shelf life, but Magnus is not overly old. Cognitive performance typically hits a plateau at 35 years old and begins a sustained decline after 45 years old. The current youth wave of GMs is likely a function of compressed training efficiency. Modern players reach the 10,000 hours threshold much earlier because they had greater access to better training material and had better practice. | |
| ▲ | simbleau 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is there really a decline with age when it comes to chess? I’m not sure he will really decline until he reaches his retirement age. | | |
| ▲ | traes an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | For some concrete numbers, there are only four players over 50 years of age in the top 100 at the moment by live ratings[0]. They are ranked #13 (age 56), #89 (age 53), #95 (age 54), and #97 (age 57). In their primes these players were ranked #1, #10, #4, and #3 respectively. [0]: https://2700chess.com/?per-page=100 | | |
| ▲ | dehrmann 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Isn't he playing Chess960 because he started finding standard chess boring? And wasn't that why Fischer worked on it in the first place? Experts might get bored of it by the time they're 50. | | |
| ▲ | peter422 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The reason the top pros like chess960 is because they don’t need to spend hundreds of hours of opening preparation, they can just sit down and play. Caruana (the guy who lost to Magnus), mused in a podcast that chess960 feels strange as a competitor because he doesn’t really prepare (because there are far too many openings to study) and said it feels like he’s getting paid for much less work. |
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| ▲ | Taek an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is some fascinating data, thanks for pulling it together. |
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| ▲ | Trufa 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's a sharp decline with age. Magnus himself says he's not as sharp as he was younger, even if he can compensate with experience. | |
| ▲ | jacquesm an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | For most people there is a cognitive decline with age, and chess is clearly a cognitive effort. Like with everything else: experience really matters, but you will simply be a bit less sharp over time and in a game where a tiny mistake can compound to a loss it really matters. |
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| ▲ | lethologica 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Context helps. A lot of really strong players are 12 years old. | | |
| ▲ | smt88 an hour ago | parent [-] | | That context doesn't help me at all. Is a "really strong" 12yo in contention to win this particular competition that a 35yo won? | | |
| ▲ | lethologica 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Sorry, I thought you’d be able to make some logical inferences and I assumed you knew a little about chess. In chess there’s a concept of strength, and ELO is used as a rough estimate of this. Further there are FIDE rankings like IM and GM that have certain requirements to achieve. In most sports, there’s never such an age gap. Think of basketball or football. You don’t see 12 year olds hitting the equivalent of GM in those respective sports (going pro?) and being able to compete with the 35 year olds, do you? In most sports, they wouldn’t even be allowed to enter but in chess they could. | |
| ▲ | traes an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, even the best prodigies typically aren't winning super tournaments until 17 or 18, and we haven't really had one of those since Gukesh won candidates last cycle. The youngest player in this event was a 20 year old who placed last. (Though to be fair to the youngsters, 3rd and 4th place are both 21 years old.) Generally speaking it's expected that chess players will peak around their late 20s and slowly decline from there, with sharp declines around age 50. It's unusual but not unheard of for players in their 40s to win major tournaments. 42 year old Levon Aronian won several last year, but it was considered a notable example of longevity every time he won. In terms of raw numbers, there are currently 30 players in their 30s, 15 players in their 40s, 4 players in their 50s, and no players older that in the top 100. The youngest is 14-year old Yagiz Kaan Erdogmus, who is considered the greatest chess prospect of all time. |
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| ▲ | p-e-w 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Is it impressive to be winning at 35? No. Multiple world champions have been older than that. | |
| ▲ | TheRealPomax an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You... should watch him stream. That'll pretty much answer your questions. Age is far less relevant to chess compared to keeping up with the current "meta" (in gamer parlance). |
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| ▲ | saucymew 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It feels like the cohort GM player pool is mentally cooked against Magnus. Youngsters like Lazavik during the Speed Chess Championship or Sindarov in Freestyle were the most recent convincing wins against Magnus, but the historical mental edge that Magnus comes into each game after beating the brakes out of everyone is hard to overcome. Magnus' time will come! But not today. |
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| ▲ | epolanski 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think it's merely mental albeit it seems like even nervous Carlsen is cooler than his very focused opponents (see game 3 vs Fabiano where caruana had a completely winning position after carlsens blunder). Carlsen has spent the core of his career mastering two aspects historically underlooked aspects of the game. The first is the endgame, and there isn't much to say there. He's by far the best end game player by far and it's not even close. The second are drawish locked positions where most GMs can't but see a draw. Carlsen realized that in order for it to be a draw his opponents still have to play perfect and he focused a lot on accumulating small but convincing advantages in those kind of games. Another thing that should not be overlook: mental strength, like you point out. | | |
| ▲ | dwd 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Carlsen has always had a tenacity that allows him to come back from positions other players would give up on thinking to conserve effort to fight another day. Mental strength and stamina to stay in the fight has always been something that made him who he is. You also can't underestimate physical stamina. Kasparov in his 5-3 result against Karpov in 1984-85 was eventually halted due to Karpov's exhaustion and losing 18kg over the match period. |
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| ▲ | FreakLegion 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you referring to the odd individual game? Magnus beat Lazavik pretty badly in the SCC and knocked Sindarov out of the Freestyle final. | | |
| ▲ | saucymew 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Individual games. The ones that specifically come to mind are Lazavik vs. Carlsen, Speed Chess Championship 2025 Semi-Final, Round 3, and Sindarov vs. Carlsen, Freestyle Chess Grand Slam Finals 2025 in South Africa, Round 1 of the Group Stage Finals. |
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| ▲ | make3 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | or maybe he's just very good? | | |
| ▲ | rybosworld 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Agree you don't have to overcomplicate it. Magnus is a generational talent. | | |
| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I would almost say “generational” is underselling it. Gretzky might be the only competitor that’s even comparable in terms of dominance. | | |
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| ▲ | system2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Brain ages. He will eventually decline just like any human being. Let's hope by then he will have the wisdom to smile when that happens. | | |
| ▲ | make3 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ageism also just one of these shitty unproven biases, like sexism, which is self-realizing by applying pressure to people who fall out of the mold even slightly. He's 30 something, not 90. | | |
| ▲ | IMTDb 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Regarding sexism; most tournaments in Chess (including the world championship) are fully open and are thus gender netral: anyone can participate regardless of sex/gender and will compete on equal footing. Women only categories have been created to give women visibility because they mostly were not able to reach advanced levels in the open format. Some women choose to compete with men (Judit Polgár being a somewhat recent example) but most go straight to the women only tournaments to have a shot. The men vs women « bias » is not unproven, they litterally had to create entire categories of competiton to account for it. | |
| ▲ | epolanski 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not unproven, there's ample literature and research on the fact. Besides, the age pool of chess itself confirms it. There's a single player in his 50s in the top 50 of chess and not a single 60+ in the top 100. Also, even carlsen himself says he's no longer as good as he was years before and his mind isn't as strong. | |
| ▲ | kaonwarb 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Cognition certainly declines with age at the population level. See e.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4906299/. | | |
| ▲ | make3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | yes but he's 30 not 90, and knowledge and experience continues to accumulate through life, which can certainly compensate | | |
| ▲ | DustinEchoes 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The decline starts in your early thirties, and those who are pushing their cognition to its limit are the first to notice. |
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| ▲ | elevation 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If the skill you need to select for is tactical combinatorics, then Chess dominance as a function of age would seem to support the premise of ageism. What ageism ignores is that outside of chess, prescience outperforms other measures of productivity. | |
| ▲ | hikkerl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can you provide at least three (3) peer-reviewed studies to support this? | |
| ▲ | bsder 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Ageism also just one of these shitty unproven biases You might be right, if we were talking about anything except chess. Chess, unlike everything else, has a clear ranking system and lots of records for people to analyze. And unfortunately, the record is very clear: chess ability decreases after a certain age. However, the decrease is more likely due to stamina than mental decline. Chess tournaments take a long time, and stamina definitely decreases with age. However, pro athletes demonstrate that you can probably go until around your early 40s before it becomes a real issue. Having said that, it will be interesting to see how this generation does in the blitz formats as they age. Those will be less dependent upon stamina and a better measure of mental acuity for chess. |
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| ▲ | haunter 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Here are the replays https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-freestyle-chess-world-cha... |
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| ▲ | HardwareLust 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fabi a bridesmaid again. The curse of being born in Magnus' generation. |
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| ▲ | xiphias2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The last match was crazy. It looked so ,,easy win'' for Fabi after Magnus's blunder that I was just fast tracking it as I was sure Magnus has no chance (especially while looking at the eval bar). I feel sorry for Fabi not winning it, but of course there can be only one winner. |
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| ▲ | smnplk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think Nakamura didnt play this time because of his Candidates prep. Otherwise I think Nakamura would have a slight edge on Carlsen in this game. |
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| ▲ | mythz an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Hikaru is either in a slump or his skill is starting to age: hasn't won Titled Tuesday since November, hasn't won Freestyle Friday this year, came last in Speed Chess Championship, etc. We'll see how well he does in Candidates this year to see if he's still a top contender. Although I do believe this is his last chance to fight for the world title. | | |
| ▲ | traes 32 minutes ago | parent [-] | | To be clear, "came last in Speed Chess Championship" actually means he came in 4th out of 16. He still made it to the semifinals. Even then he barely lost to Alireza, who is pretty universally considered a top 3 speed chess player. The loss to Lazavik was a lot worse, but it was still a close match against a strong player. He hasn't won a Titled Tuesday this year but he hasn't scored worse than 8/11 and he's still made the top 10. That's not as much of a slump as you imply IMO. | | |
| ▲ | mythz 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure he's still one of the top players, but he's not as strong this year and OP is suggesting he still has an edge against the GOAT, who this year: - Has won Freestyle WC - Has won SCC - Has won 2x Titled Tuesday's - Has won a Freestyle Friday Hikaru can snipe a win off Magnus here and there, but I don't think there's any time control or format where he could win a long series of chess matches against Magnus. | |
| ▲ | FreakLegion 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It isn't a slump at all, really. He had his first kid in December. He's preparing for the Candidates in March. Weekly chess.com tournaments are just, you know, going to be relegated to streaming content for a bit. |
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| ▲ | traes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Candidates prep and also the entire Freestyle chess experiment has been a bit of a mess. Here's what he told chess.com[0]: A few months ago I was invited to the first leg of the 2026 Freestyle Tour with the same format and prize fund. I let everyone know that I'd be playing there. Just a few days ago I received news that there will be no year-long tour for Freestyle. The format for the only event to be held will be only three days and only rapid formats. Instead of the tour that was planned, Freestyle has joined forces with FIDE and are now calling it a World Championship. I think it might hold the record for most rushed arrangement for a World Championship title in history. I truly enjoyed the first event in Weissenhaus in 2025, and it's a shame that the classical length format wasn't continued. Furthermore, this all feels like a hastily arranged tournament with less than 1/3rd the prize fund it originally had, and now it's attached to FIDE, which isn't a positive development in my opinion. Despite many phone calls and messages from the organizer, I have decided to decline my slot in this event. I have an important tournament in the end of March/April to focus on, and that is where my attention will be. [0] https://www.chess.com/news/view/freestyle-chess-fide-world-c... | |
| ▲ | hibikir an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a very short, 3 day event: You have Fabi sitting right there in second place, and I don't think anyone is more focused on the candidates than he is. Hikaru is getting older too, and it shows: I don't think he has a freestyle edge at all. | |
| ▲ | Davidzheng an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think it's because he has a young child too. But I don't think there's an edge. |
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| ▲ | throwpoaster 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Do the engines have a similar edge in Fischer Random and regular chess? |
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| ▲ | Marsymars 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd expect them to have a larger edge in chess960 because humans can't prep openings like in regular chess. | | |
| ▲ | josephg an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Do modern chess AIs do any form of opening prep? Like, do they bake any opening analysis into their engines? Or is it all pure search? | | |
| ▲ | Taek an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yes modern AIs have an entire opening database and generally have cached the first 20+ moves of the game (for most common openings) from a database of very deep searches identifying the best move. This is absolutely a form of opening prep for AIs. That said, even without that database a modern AI will completely topple the best human at every common chess variant. Humans cannot defeat modern AIs in chess like games. |
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| ▲ | umanwizard 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | But machines also can’t use opening prep like they do in normal chess. |
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| ▲ | umanwizard 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Engines never lose or draw against unassisted humans. Any modern chess engine, if it plays 100 games against any human (even magnus), will have a record of 100 wins, 0 draws, and 0 losses. This is true both in standard chess and Chess960. |
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