I would like it a lot better without the mention to the "West", which, as usual, is a code word for: "I want to pretend my point extend outside the USA but I have absolutely no knowledge of how true that is. I don't intend to do any research because that would demand efforts from me so bear with my casual imperialism". Queue the purely American historical lesson following.

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1718627440 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Greek philosophy did not happen in the USA and actually predates it quite a bit.

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wredcoll 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If we're nitpicking, is it queue or cue?

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StopDisinfo910 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I guess it's cue like on cue but it's late on a Sunday. You will have to excuse my brain.

It wasn't a nitpick by the way. I deeply resent American using "the West" like if my own country and culture was somehow fungible in their experience. They are not. We don't have that much in common. That doesn't include a legal tradition, or a conception of what freedom of speech should be, neither does it include values or history.

Edit: Enjoy downvoting me. It doesn't make what I said any less true. If you think the various European countries can be grouped with the US in a coherent whole, you are deeply deluding yourselves. They can't even be lumped together.

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wredcoll 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It would probably help if you made a more specific point rather than just ranting in very vague terms.

Grouping terms like "the west" can be broad enough to include over half of all living humans or so narrow that it applies to a small village.

It is, admittedly, not a particularly useful term, but it's not like americans are reaponsible for it.

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StopDisinfo910 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Where have you seen it used outside of Americans pretending their culture is somehow a standard and NATO apologists? The world doesn't even exist as such in my own language. It's a staple on Hacker News and nearly always for the bad reasons. I'm supposed to politely nod and shut up when people are casually erasing my culture?

	▲	wredcoll 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		What even is a "nato apologist"??? > Where have you seen it used outside of Americans Well, there was this minor thing called "the western roman empire" for a few years, so that might be a starting point. I am fascinated to learn how a claim that westerners "prefer liberty over security" is somehow erasing your culture though.
	▲	kortilla 31 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		What are you talking about? Nobody is erasing your culture except for maybe you because you aren’t even talking about your culture. You’re just ranting about Americans.

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mmooss 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Universal human rights is a very widespread belief and concept, extending to all continents and many, many cultures. It's not hard to understand why.

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wredcoll 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you'd said "isn't just a western thing" I would have definitely agreed, but this claim seems a bit unlikely.

	▲	mmooss 12 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Just look around the world; they are the norm: East Asia (Japan, South Korea, China - Taiwan, Hong Kong, June 4 on the mainland); North America; South America, almost all of the region; Europe; Australia, NZ, Indonesia, the Phillipines; South Asia (India, and I think they are enshrined if not enforced in Pakistan and some others). What's mostly missing is the Middle East, Central Asia, parts of SE Asia, and large parts of Africa - though there are Benin, Botswana, Kenya, and many others iirc.

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zelphirkalt 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So not just to the west?

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logicchains 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No it's not. There are no human rights for the lowest castes in Hinduism, there are no human rights for polytheists in Islam, there were nothing like the modern idea of human rights in Japan or China before they westernized. That's why the west was able to leapfrog other nations economically (and hence militarily), because it was the first place where people had enough rights for something resembling a modern economy to develop.

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mmooss 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> That's why the west was able to leapfrog other nations economically

I tend to agree, though it's of course hard to prove. However, I'm talking about the present, not the past.

> There are no human rights for the lowest castes in Hinduism

I said it is "very widespread", not everywhere. Perhaps the confusion is the word Universal: that doesn't mean everyone believes it (false for any belief), but that everyone has the rights, whether or not they know or can exercise them. It's the concept that starts the Declaration of Independence: All are created equal, and all have inalienable rights.

> there were nothing like the modern idea of human rights in Japan or China before they westernized

I am talking about the present, where it's adopted in East Asia (including in China - Taiwan, Hong Kong (though suppressed now), June 4 on the mainland), throughout Latin America, Europe of course, parts of Africa, the Anglo world, etc.

> there are no human rights for polytheists in Islam,

There is no country called 'Islam'; if we go by scripture, nobody has human rights. The idea that all practicioners of Islam have the same beliefs is as true as saying all practicioners of Christianity do - and look at HN.

In Indonesia, the largest majority Muslim country, there are human rights, also in India, with the largest Muslim population (but not the majority). I think Pakistan and some South Asian countries probably have them enshrined.

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wredcoll 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, nobody knows why "the west" (whatever that is) leapfrogged anyone, and this is a fairly small period in terms of total human history.

	▲	kortilla 24 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		The industrial revolution is quite well documented

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whattheheckheck 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you don't give someone a reason to live they ain't gonna slave away very hard for you