To each his own, but while I can certainly understand the hesitancy of an architect to pick Zig for a project that is projected to hit 100k+ lines of code, I really think you're missing out. There is a business case to using Zig today.

True in general but in the cloud especially, saving server resources can make a significant impact on the bottom line. There are not nearly enough performance engineers who understand how to take inefficient systems and make improvements to move towards theoretical maximum efficiency. When the system is written in an inefficient language like Python or Node, fundamentally, you have no choice but to start to move the hotpath behind FFI and drop down to a systems language. At that point your choices are basically C, C++, Rust, or Zig. Of the four choices, Zig today is already simplest to learn, with fewer footguns, easier to work with, easier to read and write, and easier to test. And you're not going to write 100k LOC of optimized hotpath code. And when you understand the cost savings involved in reducing your compute needs by sometimes more than 90% by getting the hotpath optimized, you understand that there is very much indeed a business case to learning Zig today.

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ozgrakkurt 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As a counter argument to this. I was able to replicate the subset of zig that I wanted, using c23. And in the end I have absolute stability unless I break things to “improve”.

Personally, it is a huge pain to rewrite things and update dependencies because the code I am depending on is moving out from under me. I also found this to be a big problem in Rust.

And another huge upside is you have access to best of everything. As an example, I am heavily using fuzz testing and I can very easily use honggfuzz which is the best fuzzer according to all research I could find, and also according to my experience so far.

From this perspective, it doesn’t make sense to use zig over c for professional work. If I am writing a lot of code then I don’t want to rewrite it. If am writing a very small amount of code with no dependencies, then it doesn’t matter what I use and this is the only case where I think zig might make sense.

	▲	ozgrakkurt an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		To add another point to this. W/e people write online isn’t correct all the time. I was thinking zig compiles super fast but found that c with a good build system and well split header/implementation files is basically instant to compile. You can use thin-lto with cache to have instant recompilation for release builds. Real example: I had to wait some seconds to compile and run benchmarks for a library and it re-compiles instantly (<100ms) with c. Zig does have a single compilation unit and that might have some advantages but in practice it is a hard disadvantage. And I didn’t ever see someone pointing this out online. I would really recommend trying to learn c with modernC book and try to do it with c for people like me building something from scratch
	▲	ozgrakkurt 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Also I was also thinking that breaking doesn’t matter that much, but my opinion changed around 10k lines of code very quickly. At some point I really stopped caring about every piece and wanted to forget about it and move on really

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wolvesechoes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Of the four choices, Zig today is already simplest to learn,

Yes, with almost complete lack of documentation and learning materials it is definitely the easiest language to learn.

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DetroitThrow an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>with fewer footguns, easier to work with, easier to read and write, and easier to test.

With the exception of fewer foot guns, which Rust definitely takes the cake and Zig is up in second, I'd say Zig is in last place in all of these. This really screams that you aren't aware of C/C++ testing/tooling ecosystem.

I say this as a fan of Zig, by the way.

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zozbot234 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> ...in the cloud especially, saving server resources can make a significant impact on the bottom line. There are not nearly enough performance engineers who understand how to take inefficient systems and make improvements to move towards theoretical maximum efficiency.

That's a very good point, actually. However...

> with fewer footguns

..the Crab People[0] would definitely quibble with that particular claim of yours.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_People of course.

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Tuna-Fish 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would quibble with all of the claims, other than easier to learn.

I really see no advantage for Zig over Rust after you get past that 2 first two weeks.

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solatic 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Eh, I'd say that Rust has a different set of footguns. You're correct that you won't run into use-after-free footguns, but Rust doesn't protect you from memory leaks, unsafe code is still unsafe, and the borrow checker and Rust's language complexity are their own kind of footguns.

But I digress. I was thinking of Zig in comparison to C when I wrote that. I don't have a problem conceding that point, but I still believe the overall argument is correct to point to Zig specifically in the case of writing code to optimize a hotpath behind FFI; it is much easier to get to more optimal code and cross-compilation is easier to boot (i.e. to support Darwin/AppleSilicon for dev laptops, and both Linux/x64 and Linux/arm64 for cloud servers).

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vlovich123 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> but Rust doesn't protect you from memory leaks

In theory no. In practice it really does.

> unsafe code is still unsafe

Ok, but most rust code is not unsafe while all zig code is unsafe.

> and the borrow checker and Rust's language complexity are their own kind of footguns

Please elaborate. They are something to learn but I don’t see the footgun. A footgun is a surprisingly defect that’s pointed at your foot and easy to trigger (ie doing something wrong and your foot blows off). I can’t think how the borrow checker causes that when it’s the exact opposite - you can’t ever create a footgun without doing unsafe because it won’t even compile.

> but I still believe the overall argument is correct to point to Zig specifically in the case of writing code to optimize a hotpath behind FFI; it is much easier to get to more optimal code and cross-compilation is easier to boot (i.e. to support Darwin/AppleSilicon for dev laptops, and both Linux/x64 and Linux/arm64 for cloud servers).

I agree cross compilation with zig is significantly easier but Rust isn’t that hard, especially with the cross-rs crate making it significantly simpler. Performance, Rust is going to be better - zig makes you choose between safety and performance and even in unsafe mode there’s various things that cause better codegen. For example zig follows the C path of manual noalias annotations which has been proven to be non scalable and difficult to make operational. Rust does this for all variables automatically because it’s not allowed in the language.

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solatic 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> a footgun is a surprising defect that's pointed at your foot and easy to trigger

Close, but not the way I think of a footgun. A footgun is code that was written in a naive way, looks correct, submitted, and you find out after submitting it that it was erroneous. Good design makes it easy for people to do the right thing and difficult to do the wrong thing.

In Rust it is extremely easy to hit the borrow checker including for code which is otherwise safe and which you know is safe. You walk on eggshells around the borrow checker hoping that it won't fire and shoot you in the foot and force you to rewrite. It is not a runtime footgun, it is a devtime footgun.

Which, to be fair, is sometimes desired. When you have a 1m+ LOC codebase and dozens of junior engineers working on it and requirements for memory safety and low latency requirements. Fair enough trade-off in that case.

But in Zig, you can just call defer on a deinit function. Complexity is the eternal enemy, and this is just a much simpler approach. The price of that simplicity is that you need to behave like an adult, which if the codebase (hotpath optimization) is <1k LOC I think is eminently reasonable.

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vlovich123 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> A footgun is code that was written in a naive way, looks correct, submitted, and you find out after submitting it that it was erroneous.

You’re contradicting yourself a bit here I think. Erroneous code generally won’t compile whereas in Zig it will happily do so. Also, Zig has plenty of foot guns (eg forgetting to call defer on a deinit but even misusing noalias or having an out of bounds result in memory corruption). IMHO the zig footgun story with respect to UB behavior is largely unchanged relative to C/C++. It’s mildly better but it’s closer to C/C++ than being a safe language and UB is a huge ass footgun in any moderate complexity codebase.

	▲	davemp 9 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> IMHO the zig footgun story with respect to UB behavior is largely unchanged relative to C/C++ The only major UB from C that zig doesn’t address is use after free afaik. How is that largely unchanged??? Just having an actual strong type system w/o the “billion dollar mistake” is a large change.

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program_whiz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not the GP, but I've noticed that because if you don't anticipate how you might need to mutate or share state in the future, you can have a "footgun" that forces large-scale code changes for relatively small "feature-level" changes, because of the rust strictness. Its not a footgun in the sense that your code does what you don't expect, its a footgun in that your maintenance and ability to change code is not what you expect (and its easy to do). I'm sure if you are really expert with rust, you see it coming and don't use patterns that will cause waves of changes (but if you're expert at any language you avoid the footguns).

	▲	vlovich123 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		That’s not a footgun and happens in any language. I have not observed rust code to be more prone to it. Certainly less so than c++ for various reasons around the build time and code organization.

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ozgrakkurt 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As an example to this, I was using polars in rust as a dependency in a fairly large project.

It has issues like panicking or segfaulting when using some data types (arrow array types) in the wrong place.

It is extremely difficult to write an arrow implementation in Rust.

It is much easier to do it in zig or c(without strict aliasing).

I also had the same experience with glommio in Rust.

Also the binary that we produce compiles in several minutes and is above 30mb. This is an insane amount of bloat. And unfortunately I don’t think there is another feasible way of doing this kind of work in rust, because it is so hard to write proper low level code.

I don’t agree with noalias being bad personally. I fuond it is the only way to do it. It is much harder to write code with pointers with implicit aliasing like c has by default and rust has as the only option. And you don’t ever need to use noalias except some rare places.

To make it clear, I mean the huge footgun in rust is producing a ton of bloat and subpar code because you can’t write much and you end up depending on too many libraries