Worked on an ESP. We had a couple of server software we used on low-level for sending. None of them would accept the message without a Message-ID. But even if you have a super-custom, SMTP-injecting service built, how can you ignore all of these bounces from a provider thats likeliest to be the major one you are sending to? Unthinkable. I would not like to have business with such a payment provider.

▲

idopmstuff 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is the one that gets me - sometimes you're forced to work with systems that do annoying things that you have to accommodate. It's annoying, but it's more important to do the thing that prevents your users from having issues than it is to be theoretically right about whether something's required by a standard.

I've dealt with many worse cases than this, where the systems I was integrating with were doing things that weren't even close to reasonable, but they had the market power so I sucked it up and dealt with it for the sake of my users. Maybe Google's wrong here, but how do you not just implement the solution anyway?

	▲	atmosx an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> Maybe Google's wrong here, but how do you not just implement the solution anyway? But they just did (make it work). The logical assumption is that most ppl did the same, just used another email provider. Why would viva care? (same as google, why would google care?).
	▲	renato_shira 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		this is the pragmatic take that matters. i've dealt with this exact dynamic with app store review processes: the guidelines say one thing, the reviewer interprets it differently, and at the end of the day you just fix whatever they flag because shipping matters more than being technically right. the email situation is the same pattern at scale. google workspace has the market power to enforce whatever interpretation they want, and the RFC debate is basically irrelevant from a business perspective. your users don't care that your reading of the spec is correct, they care that they didn't get the receipt. the part about a payment processor not testing deliverability is wild though. that should be in the first week of any transactional email setup: send test emails to gmail, outlook, yahoo, protonmail, check headers, verify SPF/DKIM/DMARC, and actually monitor bounce rates. the fact that a major processor missed something this basic suggests the email infra was probably a "set it and forget it" setup from years ago that nobody ever revisited.

▲

atmosx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I would not like to have business with such a payment provider.

Chances are that the decision-makers in most companies don't care about the technicalities (i.e. which email you used for registration) - they want to get up and running.

The reason that Viva doesn't care, I assume, is the reason Google workspace doesn't care: they're both too big to care for 5% of their clients won't do the extra work. They know that their, usually much smaller clients, will "figure it out" by i.e. using another setup that works™. So why bother?

▲

thesuitonym 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how can you ignore all of these bounces from a provider thats likeliest to be the major one you are sending to?

This is the major issue that most of the discussion is missing. It doesn't matter how you want to interpret the word SHOULD, if you want to send to google workspace, you MUST include a message-id. It's not like this is some fly-by-night server with 12 clients.

If you absolutely and completely don't want to include the message-id, then you need to have a warning that your service can't be used by Google Workspace customers. This used to be common practice, blocking communication to servers that behaved badly, and I sort of wish we'd bring it back.

▲

saltmate 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I doubt Google Workspace is going to be the major provider for European businesses

▲

leansensei 5 hours ago | parent [-]

...and you'd be wrong.

▲

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

For now, but with EU digital sovereignty efforts in full swing, it's possible this changes over time. More so if the EU uses regulation to dissuade the use of US Big Tech products and services.

▲

x0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-]

... which is irrelevant to the demonstrated and shocking incompetence of being unable to deliver either to the #1 or #2 inbox for businesses in the EU?

	▲	toomuchtodo 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Helps justify moving away from them I suppose.