| ▲ | Legend2440 14 hours ago |
| The trouble is that paying a few people to not work is very very different from paying everyone to not work. We need people to work to produce the things they need to live. As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen. This fantasy of being able to live without working is out of touch with the cold hard reality. |
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| ▲ | lostlogin 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > As long as this remains true, UBI can never happen. New Zealand pays a pension to everyone over 65, whether or not they are working. No means testing and little political will to move the age upward.
About 25% of those over 65 work, and the percentage is growing. There are multiple reasons this could be true (eg, limited savings forcing work).
The lack of means testing obviously saves money and shenanigans working out who is entitled, though the ‘universal’ nature limited how much a needy recipient can get. I argue this is a test case on UBI. |
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| ▲ | yawboakye 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > paying a few people to not work not in this case though. as explained elsewhere, the artist is a dying career choice in ireland owing to economic reasons. no artist == drub society therefore the incompetent government intervenes the only way incompetence approves: free money. making the state function is much harder, and that’s not what these politicians signed up for. reducing electricity bill by 50% is a herculean task so how about jacking up taxes in one place and giving it back as free money in another? this is the modus operandi of the irish government. |
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| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The problem is soon (and to some extent currently) there won't be enough work for everyone, and there definitely won't be enough to support them at a historical lifestyle level. I guess those people continuing to live (or live semi-well) would be fantasy to you. I'm not sure where society will go at that point. The western world has sold a 'we are improving your life' story to get buy in from the masses. What do you propose? Other options used in the past were typically state provided bread and circuses and/or waging war. |
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| ▲ | Legend2440 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Your entire idea of economics is backwards. There is more than enough work for everyone right now, and (outside of recessions) we will not run out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy As more and more work is automated, the lifestyle level increases rather than decreases. Automation lets you produce more with the same amount of labor, increasing productivity and raising the standard of living. This is the sole reason we're not subsistence farmers right now. War does not help the masses; it is purely destructive and one of the worst things you can do for the economy in the long run. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | And yet my kids standard of living is worse. Their optimism about their employment is worse. I never used to know people working multiple very menial part time jobs to survive other than people restarting their lives. When I was young people working second jobs were saving money for a vacation or using them to pay for a fancy car, not as part of their basic budget/means of earning an income. "Ray Dalio says America is developing a ‘dependency’ on the top 1% of workers, while the bottom 60% are struggling and unproductive" https://fortune.com/2025/10/27/ray-dalio-america-dependeny-t... "Millions of Americans Are Becoming Economically Invisible "
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45374779 War is unproductive and a destructive use of resources but that doesn't change that it has historically be an outlet for unused labor. My point was that if we don't approach things intelligently/intentionally we can end up with crappy unwanted/unintentional outcomes. |
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| ▲ | nradov 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How soon is "soon"? I don't know about Ireland but the US unemployment rate remains near record lows. We still don't have robots that can snake out a plugged toilet. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not sure the exact trajectory but it's going pretty quickly now. "Ray Dalio says America is developing a ‘dependency’ on the top 1% of workers, while the bottom 60% are struggling and unproductive" https://fortune.com/2025/10/27/ray-dalio-america-dependeny-t... "Millions of Americans Are Becoming Economically Invisible " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45374779 | | |
| ▲ | nradov 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ray Dalio says a lot of things, only about half are correct. Where is the data? Employers are quick to fire unproductive workers and yet the unemployment rate remains low. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | The figures exclude workers who would like to work but have given up, and those who work part-time but would like a full-time job. The U-6 rate is nearly twice the rate of the official figures. | | |
| ▲ | bobthepanda 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Also, one major confounding factor is that in 2008, gig economy apps like Uber did not exist. The unemployment rate is measured by if someone has done an hour of paid work in the last week. Which is pretty easy to disqualify for if you do any gig economy work. And in a true slowdown the gig apps will probably stop being able to absorb people. |
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