Being an engineer by training, I never got exposed to much algebra in my courses (beyond the usual high school stuff in high school). In fact did not miss it much either. Tried to learn some algebraic geometry then... oh the horror. For whatever reason, my intuition is very geometric and analytic (in the calculus sense). Even things like counting and combinatorics, they feel weird, like dry flavorless pretzels made of dried husk. Combinatorics is good only when I can use Calculus. Calculus, oh that's different, it's rich savoury umami buttery briskets. Yum.

That's not the interesting part. The interesting part is that I thought everyone is the same, like me.

It was a big and surprising revelation that people love counting or algebra in just the same way I feel about geometry (not the finite kind) and feel awkward in the kind of mathematics that I like.

It's part of the reason I don't at all get the hate that school Calculus gets. It's so intuitive and beautifully geometric, what's not to like. .. that's usually my first reaction. Usually followed by disappointment and sadness -- oh no they are contemplating about throwing such a beautiful part away.

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macromagnon 6 hours ago | parent [-]

School calculus is hated because it's typically taught with epsilon delta proofs which is a formalism that happened later in the history of calculus. It's not that intuitive for beginners, especially students who haven't learn any logic to grok existential/universal quantifiers. Historically, mathematics is usually developed by people with little care for complete rigor, then they erase their tracks to make it look pristine. It's no wonder students are like "who the hell came up with all this". Mathematics definitely has an education problem.

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jjgreen 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can do it with infinitesimals if you like, but the required course in nonstandard analysis to justify it is a bastard.

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jonahx 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Or you can hand wave a bit and trust intuition. Just like the titans who invented it all did!

The obsession with rigor that later developed -- while necessary -- is really an "advanced topic" that shouldn't displace learning the intuition and big picture concepts. I think math up through high school should concentrate on the latter, while still being honest about the hand-waving when it happens.

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zozbot234 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can do it with synthetic differential geometry, but that introduces some fiddliness in the underlying logic in order to cope with the fact that eps^2 really "equals" zero for small enough eps, and yet eps is not equal to zero.

	▲	anthk 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		while (i > 0) { operate_over_time } calculus works... because it was almost designed for Mechanics. If the machine it's getting input, you have output. When it finished getting input, all the output you get yields some value, yes, but limits are best understood not for the result, but for the process (what the functions do). You are not sending 0 coins to a machine, do you? You sent X to 0 coins to a machine. The machine will work from 2 to 0, but 0 itself is not included because is not a part of a changing process, it's the end. Limits are for ranges of quantities over something.

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cyberax 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

IMO, the calculus is taught incorrectly. It should start with functions and completely avoid sequences initially. Once you understand how calculus exploits continuity (and sometimes smoothness), it becomes almost intuitive. That's also how it was historically developed, until Weierstrass invented his monster function and forced a bit more rigor.

But instead calculus is taught from fundamentals, building up from sequences. And a lot of complexity and hate comes from all those "technical" theorems that you need to make that jump from sequences to functions. E.g. things like "you can pick a converging subsequence from any bounded sequence".

	▲	srean 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Interesting. In Maths classes, we started with functions. Functions as list of pairs, functions defined by algebraic expressions, functions plotted on graph papers and after that limits. Sequences were peripherally treated, just so that limits made sense. Simultaneously, in Physics classes we were being taught using infinitesimals, with the a call back that "you will see this done more formally in your maths classes, but for intuition, infinitesimals will do for now".