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The RCE that AMD won't fix(mrbruh.com)
85 points by MrBruh 5 hours ago | 43 comments
digiown 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One good thing we can say about Linux bundling all the drivers is that it obviates the need to run almost all of this type of low quality (if not outright spyware) driver management software. They are especially problematic because they can't be sandboxed easily like most other proprietary crap.

For whatever reason, distro maintainers working for free seem a lot more competent with security than billion dollar hardware vendors

aleph_minus_one an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> For whatever reason, distro maintainers working for free seem a lot more competent with security than billion dollar hardware vendors

I don't believe that these billion dollar hardware vendors are really incompetent with security. It's rather that the distro maintainers do care quite a bit about security, while for these hardware vendors consider these security concerns to be of much smaller importance; for their business it is likely much more important to bring the next hardware generation to the market as fast as possible.

In other words: distro maintainers and hardware vendors are simply interested in very different things and thus prioritize things very differently.

da_chicken an hour ago | parent [-]

Sure. New sales means new revenue. Maintenance and support is just overhead.

It's shortsighted, but modern capitalism is more shortsighted than Mr. Magoo.

nextaccountic an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is the issue in the OP related to windows? this wasn't immediately clear

colechristensen an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It is, mostly, the organization Linus created (and of course the enormous number of people participating).

An absurd amount of weight is carried by a small number of very influential people that can and want to just do a good job.

And a signal that they're the best is you don't see them in the news.

We need more very influential people who aren't newsworthy.

digiown an hour ago | parent [-]

The most direct comparison would be the package manager, that's why I said distros. These driver management tools do a (poor) job at being a package manager, along with many other commercial software installation tools.

With Linux itself, it helps that they are working in public (whether volunteering or as a job), and you'd be sacked not in a closed-door meeting, but on LKML for everyone to see if you screw up this badly.

rtpg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is super bad right? Like anybody who has this running will be vulnerable to a super basic HTTP redirect -> installer running on their machine attack, right? And on top of that it's for something that is likely installed on _so many_ machines, right?

I don't think I've ever seen something this exploitable that is so prevalent. Like couldn't you just sit in an airport and open up a wifi hotspot and almost immediately own anyone with ATI graphics?

Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So compromising one DNS lookup is sufficient, ex:

1. Home router compromised, DHCP/DNS settings changed.

2. Report a wrong (malicious) IP for ww2.ati.com.

3. For HTTP traffic, it snoops and looks for opportunities to inject a malicious binary.

4. HTTPS traffic is passed through unchanged.

__________

If anyone still has their home-router using the default admin password, consider this a little wake-up call: Even if your new password is on a sticky-note, that's still a measurable improvement.

The risks continue, though:

* If the victim's router settings are safe, an attacker on the LAN may use DHCP spoofing to trick the target into using a different DNS server.

* The attacker can set up an alternate network they control, and trick the user into connecting, like for a real coffee shop, or even a vague "Free Wifi."

gmueckl 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Just spoofing a DNS reply would be enough if it arrives first, wouldn't it?

redox99 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It's usually very simple to get someone to join your malicious WiFi network with SSID spoofing, jamming, etc.

redox99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wow, this is an extremely serious vulnerability. People writing it off because it requires MitM. There's always a MitM, the internet is basically a MitM.

webstrand an hour ago | parent [-]

MitM isn't even necessary, a rogue DHCP server configuring a malicious DNS could attack this.

tptacek 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They're not considering it not to be a vulnerability. They're simply saying it's outside the scope of their bug bounty program.

Retr0id 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Looks like there's a serious security bug in their scope document.

tptacek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

How's that? What do you think the purpose of a bug bounty is? If you think it's "to eradicate all bugs", no, very no.

Retr0id 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't expect an unbounded scope but I do expect it to cover the big scary headline items like RCE. Additionally, this can be exploited without MitM if you combine with e.g. a DNS cache poisoning attack. And they can still fix it even if they're not willing to pay a bounty.

tptacek 2 hours ago | parent [-]

DNS poisoning is a MITM vector; in fact, it's the most popular MITM vector.

webstrand an hour ago | parent [-]

Really? I thought MitM was always intercepting/manipulating traffic from or to the victim.

vishnugupta an hour ago | parent [-]

What you wrote is the definition of MITM.

Op and others are saying DNS poisoning is a popular way of achieving that goal.

webstrand 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

Oh you mean that it's a popular way of initiating the interception part of MitM, got it.

JJJollyjim 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is the place they direct researchers to report bugs. If they don’t want to pay out for MITM, that’s fine, but they should still be taking out-of-scope reports seriously

bravetraveler 2 hours ago | parent [-]

+1 Bounty aside, this deserves attention. I wouldn't want to award bounties for MitM either if I made it so easy. They closed the issue as 'out of scope'... with no mention of follow-up (or even the bounty we don't care about).

I'm skeptical to say the least. Industry standard has been to ignore MitM or certificates/signatures, not everything.

LoganDark an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

A bug bounty should motivate exploitable bugs to be reported so that they can be fixed. IMO, if it refuses to fix certain kinds of bugs that can still be exploited, it's not working properly.

tptacek 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

A bug bounty directs internal engineering efforts. It can't eradicate bugs; that's not how bugs work.

bb88 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not directly an RCE unto itself, it requires something else. A compromised DNS on the network, e.g. So no surprise they ignored it.

Also, if AMD is getting overwhelmed with security reports (a la curl), it's also not surprising. Particularly if people are using AI to turn bug bounties into income.

Lastly if it requires a compromised DNS server, someone would probably point out a much easier way to compromise the network rather than rely upon AMD driver installer.

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As someone that works security, the whole "A compromised DNS on the network" would be a total excuse not to pay.

The fact is allowing any type of unsigned update on HTTP is a security flaw in itself.

>someone would probably point out a much easier way to compromise the networ

No, not really. That's why every other application on the planet that does security of any kind uses either signed binaries or they use HTTPSONLY. Simply put allowing HTTP updates is insecure. The network should never be by default trusted by the user.

What's even fucking dumber on AMDs part is this is just one BGP hijacking from a worldwide security incident.

rkeene2 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It really just requires a network that doesn't use some kind of NAC since you can trivially do ARP poisoning of your target.

b1temy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While I don't like that the executable's update URL is using just plain HTTP, AMD does explicitly state that in their program that attacks requiring man-in-the-middle or physical access is out-of-scope.

Whether you agree with whether this rule should be out-of-scope or not is a separate issue.

What I'm more curious about is the presence of both a Development and Production URL for their XML files, and their use of a Development URL in production. While like the author said, even though the URL is using TLS/SSL so it's "safe", I would be curious to know if the executable URLs are the same in both XML files, and if not, I would perform binary diffing between those two executables.

I imagine there might be some interesting differential there that might lead to a bug bounty. For example, maybe some developer debug tooling that is only present only in the development version but is not safe to use for production and could lead to exploitation, and since they seemed to use the Development URL in production for some reason...

pixl97 an hour ago | parent [-]

> is a separate issue.

No, just no. This is not a separate issue. It is 100% the issue.

Lets say I'm a nation state attacker with resources. I write up my exploit and then do a BGP hijack of whatever IPs the driver host resolves to.

There you go, I compromised possibly millions of hosts all at once. You think anyone cares that this wasn't AMDs issue at this point?

b1temy an hour ago | parent [-]

You misunderstand.

I already said I do not like that it is just using HTTP, and yes, it is problematic.

What I am saying is that the issue the author reported and the issue that AMD considers man-in-the-middle attacks as out-of-scope, are two separate issues.

If someone reports that a homeowner has the keys visibly on top of their mat in front of their front-door, and the homeowner replies that they do not consider intruders entering their home as a problem, these are two separate issues, with the latter having wider ramifications (since it would determine whether other methods and vectors of mitm attacks, besides the one the author of the post reported, are declared out-of-scope as well). But that doesn't mean the former issue is unimportant, it just means that it was already acknowledged, and the latter issue is what should be focused on (At least on AMD's side. It still presents a problem for users who disagree with AMD of it being out-of-scope).

Dylan16807 an hour ago | parent [-]

The phrasing of your first two sentences in your first post makes it sound like you're dismissing the security issue. For saying that it's a real security issue and then another issue on top you should word it very differently.

b1temy an hour ago | parent [-]

> The phrasing of your first two sentences in your first post makes it sound like you're dismissing the security issue.

Genuine question, How does it sound like I'm dismissing it? My first sentence begins with the the phrase

> I don't like that the executable's update URL is using just plain HTTP

And my second sentence

> Whether you agree with whether this rule should be out-of-scope or not is a separate issue.

which, with context that AMD reported MITM as out-of-scope, clearly indicates that I think of it as an issue, albeit, a separate one from the one the author already reported.

zythyx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AMD AutoUpdate terminal always pops up at midnight for me and then requires me to dismiss it. I've been meaning to uninstall this but always forget about it the next morning.

Now I have good reason to block it entirely and go back to manual updates

arjie 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why even bother with WONTFIX? Turning on an nginx LetsEncrypt in front of it would have taken as long.

svespalec 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is unfortunate news but I'm not even surprised that they don't seem to care. Nice writeup.

bravetraveler 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Based on the policy (and my hat) I have to assume some business partner failed to maintain the 'ca-certificates' equivalent for Windows (or NTP) and was rewarded in their insane demand for plaintext.

So easy to fix, just... why? My kingdom for an 's'. One of these policies are not like the others. Consider certificates and signatures before categorically turning a blind eye to MitM, please: you "let them in", AMD. Wow.

jMyles 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If this is true, it seems like a much more serious vulnerability than I was expecting when I clicked the link.

And it's obviously an oversight; there is no reason to intentionally opt for http over https in this situation.

coip an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Spooky, this is not exposure if using Linux?

nalekberov 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This means that a malicious attacker on your network, or a nation state that has access to your ISP can easily perform a MITM attack and replace the network response with any malicious executable of their choosing.

I am pretty sure, a nation state wanting to hack an individual's system has way more effective tools at their disposal.

yunnpp an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Presumably, all Windows installations running on AMD are auto-executing this auto-update program.

pixl97 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I guess one should keep their eyes out on the next big BGP hijack.

TacticalCoder 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This means that a malicious attacker on your network, or a nation state that has access to your ISP can easily perform a MITM attack and replace the network response with any malicious executable of their choosing.

    http://www2.ati.com/...
I'm blocking port 80 since forever so there's that.

But now ati.com is going straight into my unbound DNS server's blocklist.

NullPrefix 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Attacks requiring physical access to a victim's computer/device, man in the middle or compromised user accounts

I love how they grouped man in the middle there