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theamk a day ago

I think political interference is a horrible thing for university education.

But that particular part - "laws requiring professors to publicly post their course outlines in searchable databases" - is great, and should be done everywhere. There are actually universities who _claim_ to have great math (or physics or other science) program, but actually just teach it at "advanced high school" level. So public syllabi - something that was very common in 2000's but going out of style today - are critical for anyone choosing the university to go to.

ebiester a day ago | parent | next [-]

So, that sounds fine in theory.

What's happening in practice, though, is a group of people (like Campus Watch) are looking specifically for anyone teaching gender, trans issues, race, and religion, and analyzing the coursework through their ideologies and harassing professors on account of it. And they're going through past years as well as present.

Eddy_Viscosity2 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Not sharing course outlines is not going to help make this problem better. Better to face those groups head on than hide.

solid_fuel a day ago | parent | next [-]

> Better to face those groups head on than hide.

Cool, if you feel that way then go face them. Don't force professors to stand in the firing line in your stead.

> Not sharing course outlines is not going to help make this problem better.

It would make finding targets more difficult than just doing a ctrl-f, which obviously would make the problem better just by making it harder to find professors to harass.

Larrikin a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why should professors face death threats head on? What are they going to do differently besides self censor?

UncleMeat a day ago | parent | prev [-]

It observably does make it better.

A friend of mine was harassed by these sorts of groups for their teaching. They received death threats, hardcore pornography, and gore in their inbox from these chuds. The trigger was the availability of their course material online.

belviewreview a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see what you are saying, but not publishing the materials is not going to solve the problem. That's because the people who are attacking the professors will just get it by some other means, like having someone attend the class.

Remember, the attackers are not a few oddballs. The are members of a vast MAGA movement that has enough member to elect the present president and that encourages this sort of behavior. And they have tons of money behind them.

eviks 20 hours ago | parent [-]

> will just get it by some other means, like having someone attend the class.

Not really, they don't have sufficient time budget and a network of agents to do that as comprehensively as with a simple "google search" some bureaucrat/activist can perform in a few minutes

> And they have tons of money behind them.

Sure, and each dollar has plenty competing uses

eudamoniac 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I've heard for years that this sort of cancel culture doesn't exist or isn't a problem, and it's just the consequences of engaging in unpopular speech. Xkcd "showing you the door" and all that.

janice1999 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Intent matters though. Malicious actors, who are very much in power, will use the information to target universities and ideas [1] they don't like. Don't build databases for your enemies. Censuses were a great tool too, until certain people took power, then destroying them became the moral thing to do [2].

[1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/academic-...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Amsterdam_civil_registry_...

vibeprofessor a day ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

juliusceasar a day ago | parent | next [-]

Telling the history of your country about how you enslaved, murdered and tortured are considered "grievance narratives" by the current administration. Declaring scientists public enemy because they don't follow your politics.

like_any_other a day ago | parent | next [-]

Do they also teach about Comanche slave raids and other intra-native wars, and the native American treatment of prisoners of war and slaves, putting European conquerors in context as just another warring 'tribe', just a more successful one? Or do they teach a one-sided morality play version of history?

UncleMeat a day ago | parent [-]

What history course would you expect to see this in? Courses don't tend to contain "by-the-ways" for things outside of the course material. Should it be against the rules to have a course specifically on the african slave trade? If somebody is teaching a course on the italian renaissance, should they be obligated to mention that great art was made in china too?

College history courses aren't "one-sided morality plays."

like_any_other a day ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

UncleMeat 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I am not sure what you want.

The reason why there is more discussion of atrocities committed by europeans is because there is way more course material focused on europeans. There are more courses on the american and french revolutions than the haitian revolution. Even orientalism is a european frame, focusing on how europeans engaged with the near and far east. A course on orientalism is not a course on the middle east. It is a course on europeans.

I do not observe classes on precolumbian american or the islamic golden age shying away from atrocities in their course material. Courses on specific topics rather than time period / region pairings don't tend to shy away from a global frame either.

So you've got a few options.

You could insist that when atrocities come up in courses that focus on europeans that the course contains a "but actually" where it discusses other atrocities to balance things out. This seems odd from a pedagogical standpoint.

You could reduce the number of courses focusing on europeans and increase the number of courses focused elsewhere. But doing this is also considered "woke."

You could deliberately avoid discussion of atrocities committed by europeans in "western civ" style courses. This also doesn't strike me as right.

Could you share what specifically you'd expect to change about history curricula?

vibeprofessor a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

mindslight a day ago | parent [-]

While this has some valid points, constructively addressing these issues is clearly not the political thrust of the destructionists who wish to simplistically downplay the history rather than framing it in a more productive manner.

Also the condemnation of "treats political disagreement as moral evil" landed harder back before the other tribe decided to embrace the dynamic and fortify their political stances with blatant immoral evil.

janice1999 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

From a European perspective this response and your other comments ranting about "pronouns" and "Marxist ideology" makes me think you're either a troll parroting bizarre US political memes or, if serious, you're the one indoctrinated in a radical ideology. Either way, I suggest closing the browser and talking to people in real life.

rahimnathwani a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"I think political interference is a horrible thing for university education."

The University of California is one of the largest universities in the US. It is governed by a Board of Regents. The majority of those Regents are appointed by the state Governor.

Do you consider that 'political interference'?

One of the things those Regents did was vote to end the use of SAT scores in admissions. They did during a meeting in which several spoke of the value of the SAT. And they acted against the recommendations of the Academic Council's Standardized Testing Task Force.

You might think that the staggered and long terms protect against political interference/influence. But if that's the case, how do we explain how so many votes are unanimous when, on the day of the vote, some regents express opposing views?

kyboren a day ago | parent | next [-]

> how do we explain how so many votes are unanimous when, on the day of the vote, some regents express opposing views?

That reminds me of the Politburo voting scene in The Death of Stalin. Small group politics at their finest.

Anyway, the UC Board of Regents is full of political hacks and corrupt cronies. Diane Feinstein's husband was famously a regent, while simultaneously serving as Chairman of both CBRE and his own leveraged buyout private equity firm.

UncleMeat a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Boards of Regents consistently suck shit. The rather famous "put your body upon the gears" speech was about the Berkeley Board. Leftists largely hate the boards of both public and private universities. They are often megarich people with minimal understanding of pedagogy or even university administration.

coldtea a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nobody (roughly) is choosing the university to go to based on the syllabus. They choose it based on cost, exclusivity, and networking considerations.

theamk a day ago | parent [-]

Everyone I know chose based on quality of education (for which syllabus is an important signal) and cost. This is various STEM-related fields.

The "exclusivity" and "networking considerations" stop mattering if you not looking into Ivy League.. and most people don't go there.

mmooss a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There are actually universities who _claim_ to have great math (or physics or other science) program, but actually just teach it at "advanced high school" level.

What do you mean by that? And could you give an example?

It's hard to imagine any university teaching science majors at 'advanced high school' level, as I understand it. I could see a US community college or almost any university teaching intro courses that way. I can't iamgine what a 4th year chemistry major would be studying that fits the scope of 'advanced high school'.

testing22321 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> But that particular part - "laws requiring professors to publicly post their course outlines in searchable databases" - is great, and should be done everywhere.

You have to think about the consequences.

It seems like a great thing until doors are smashed down and people are taken away for discussing topics the current regime doesn’t want discussed.