| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago |
| > China is more stable than the Soviet Union was in the 1960s Xi literally just purged “the country’s top military leader, Gen. Zhang Youxia, and an associate, Gen. Liu Zhenli” [1]. This is the mark of a dictator. Not the Soviet Union at its finest. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/03/us/politics/china-xi-mili... |
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| ▲ | smallmancontrov 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Did the USSR ever manufacture 80% of the stuff in your house? |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Did the USSR ever manufacture 80% of the stuff in your house? China makes about a third of the world’s stuff [1]. Soviet Union probably peaked around a fifth, though it might have been as high as a fourth. China is undoubtedly stronger today, absolutely and relative to the U.S., than the Soviets ever were. But history is littered with self-obsessed autocrats ruining a good thing. Part of what makes the world today frustrating is both America and China are squandering their advantages in remarkably-similar ways, with each regime’s defenders speaking almost identically. [1] https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/china-worlds-sole-manufacturi... | | |
| ▲ | alephnerd an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Part of what makes the world today frustrating is both America and China are squandering their advantages in remarkably-similar ways, with each regime’s defenders speaking almost identically. Personalist rule be personalist. Also glad to see you also appear to recognize our "Wolf Warrior" moment. |
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| ▲ | iancmceachern an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah but they don't design the stuff | |
| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If they had manufactured 80% of the stuff in my house, wouldn't Reagan have concluded that they had won the war before it started? A country that manufactures 80% of the things you need to live might just decide to not sell them to you if you misbehave. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but the real question is if Reagan still would have pushed as hard for financialization and deindustrialization if he understood that he was ultimately selling American industry to communists. I think he would have. I think he hated American labor more than he hated foreign communists. If his head were still around in a Futurama Jar to comment on the matter, I think he would be blaming American workers for the consequences of his own policies. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > I think he hated American labor more than he hated foreign communists Ironic, considering his own history as a union leader. | |
| ▲ | chrisco255 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Reagan didnt push for deindustrialization and "the world is flat" world view didn't take precedence until after the fall of the Soviet Union in the 90s. At the time, everyone was still optimistic that China would eventually become more open and even democratic, that Russia would not regress, etc. It was still common for electronics and microprocessors to be made in USA well into the 90s. Reagan had nothing to do with the expansion of WTO and trade deficits with China that ballooned under HW, Clinton, Bush Jr and Obama. |
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| ▲ | hdivider 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree there is a lot of chaos over there, and numerous challenges. But I don't see China collapsing anytime soon, nothing like the Soviet Union. It's going to be a long-term space race. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I don't see China collapsing anytime soon, nothing like the Soviet Union I don’t either. But the Soviet Union’s space programme lost its steam in the 1970s. (Venus was its last ambitious achievement.) If China gets bogged down in Taiwan because Xi fired every military expert who might disagree with him, that’s going to cost them the space race. (Same as if America decides to replicate the Sino-Soviet split with Europe over Greenland. We can’t afford a competitive space programme at that point.) | | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If China gets bogged down in Taiwan The odds of them losing militarily are virtually nil. They could face an insurgency, but there isn't a whole lot of rural Taiwan for insurgents to vanish into and occupying cities is a lot easier absent language and cultural barriers. The could be isolated politically and economically, but realistically China's territorial claim on Taiwan is on far firmer legal and historical ground than many other territorial disputes (eg their control over Tibet). I don't see the US involving itself directly. What are they going to do, counter-blockade? Start a naval shooting war with a full-on nuclear power on the other side of the world? I don't see Japan backing that either, despite their natural anxiety over the vulnerability of the Ryukyu islands. Support for US bases in Okinawa is ambivalent at best, and while Japan is surely not thrilled about Chinese regional hegemony it's also a reality they've dealt with for thousands of years. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-] | | > odds of them losing militarily are virtually nil The odds of them winding up in a Russia-Ukraine are not nil. (Combined-arms war is hard even without ideological purges.) America isn’t only outside power investing not only in helping Taiwan fight, but also making any victory pyrrhic. And following that, we’ll see Indian and Japanese containment go into overdrive. (To say nothing of the Philippines or Vietnam.) I think Xi probably takes Taiwan. But that trades off China’s century of prosperity on economic and diplomatic fronts. That’s the trap the West has been laying, and Xi’s ego and internal constraints almost force him into it. (Again, if China had showed its pre-Xi patience in the 2010s, we might have seen Taiwan voting to unify right now. Instead he rushed things for personal glory and enrichment.) |
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| ▲ | Animats 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If China gets bogged down in Taiwan... Look at the geography.
Taiwan is a long, narrow island. All the important parts are in a narrow plain on the west side, facing China. There's only about 20km of depth from the sea. The war in Ukraine is like fighting over Iowa, one farm at a time.
Taiwan is not like that. | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Although I agree the space program lost steam, I'd still count the Mir space station (1985) and Buran space shuttle (1988) to both be ambitious achievements. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-] | | > I'd still count the Mir space station (1985) and Buran space shuttle (1988) to both be ambitious achievements Mir yes. Buran was an ambitious project but not achievement. | | |
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| ▲ | adventured 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a question as to whether China's surplus capability is enough to overflow the deprivation that a space program might suffer in a chaos Taiwan scenario. Their resources and capabilities are obviously substantial and sustained (not going anywhere). The USSR had only a few patches of sustained serious economic output, the rest of the time was rolling from one disaster to another, one deprivation after another. It seems entirely plausible that China getting bogged down in Taiwan wouldn't be enough to deprive them of a run to the Moon. The US was able to sustain NASA during Iraq-Afghanistan, and go to the Moon during the Vietnam War (plus cultural chaos). That said, China isn't going to get bogged down in Taiwan. It's going to unfortunately be easier than most are imagining. China will ultimately regret not moving on the island sooner when they see how easy it's going to be to take it and how weak the US response will be (the US can't sustain a stand-off with China in that region for more than a few weeks before folding, unless it's willing to go to full war mode economically (which it's not)). | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > seems entirely plausible that China getting bogged down in Taiwan wouldn't be enough to deprive them of a run to the Moon. The US was able to sustain NASA during Iraq-Afghanistan We probably lost basing on the Moon because Bush went into Iraq. China getting bogged down in Taiwan means more political repression, more restiveness in Xinjiang and—if New Delhi isn’t totally stupid—needing to prop up Pakistan and its strategic fronts in the Himalayas. It also almost certainly means demand destruction in Europe, the EU and ASEAN. > China isn't going to get bogged down in Taiwan. It's going to unfortunately be easier than most are imagining The same people saying this today had hot takes on Kyiv falling in ‘21. China invading Taiwan demilitarized Japan and India. It fundamentally changes its doorstep in ways that incur costs. To the Soviets, Afghanistan. To America, Iraq and possibly Greenland. To China, Taiwan. (And let’s be clear: this is a vanity project for Xi. Taiwan would have voted, eventually, to peacefully join China if pre-Xi trends continued. But he needed it on his watch. Hence the stupidity.) | | |
| ▲ | alephnerd an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > And let’s be clear: this is a vanity project for Xi. Taiwan would have voted, eventually, to peacefully join China if pre-Xi trends continued. But he needed it on his watch. Hence the stupidity. From what I've been hearing from my buddies still in the NatSec space what matters at this point is the 2028 Taiwanese Election and maybe the 2028 Philippines Election. If neither see a definitive victory for either side in 2028, it gives a face saving off-ramp for the Xi admin to argue they brought the "Taiwan Problem" back on track to the pre-2014 status quo. Of course they could be closeted KMT/TPP supporters but it does come down to the 28 elections. | |
| ▲ | wafflemaker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The same people saying this today had hot takes on Kyiv falling in ‘21. Please note that Kiev not falling after a week in '22 (assuming you misspelled) was pure luck. Russians had extreme advantage in man and firepower. They made a big mistake by using their army against their doctrine - not bombing/shelling targets before attacking (what Russian army was designed for). But them losing the war (at least the first week) is due to a few lucky dice rolls for us. Us both Europe, but also for me as a Polish expat, knowing my brothers and friends are not dying right now fighting Russian army with all the Ukrainians conscripted into it. These lucky dice rolls that I can come up from memory:
1. Shooting down one of two military passenger planes with russian Seals that were to take Kiev's Hostomel airport and open an air bridge. The group from the plane that survived did take the airfields, but they couldn't decide on their own to move and take the airports buildings - no distributed command in Russia at that point. Thanks to that, local territorial defence managed to easily kill these elite forces.
2. Fast and generous support from England in form of Javelins that limited Russian heavy equipment advantage. Sorry if I don't credit the countries involved correctly.
3. Fast and generous aid with post soviet equipment from old Warsaw pact countries. These tanks could be used right away as they required no re-training.
4. General incompetence and duty negligence that was systemic in Soviets and is still systemic in Russia. To that we owe cars running out of fuel, or having their tires pop, because, against orders to regularly move them, they all sat with sun damaging one side of the tire so many years, while the responsible for maintenance were drinking vodka and eating pierogi with kielbasa. | | |
| ▲ | hparadiz an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > pure luck this is actually skill, bravery, and fortitude | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Putin ignored his army and tasked the FSB with the project. He fundamentally got fucked by putting loyalty ahead of merit. It’s what Hegseth is doing in America and now Xi, again, in China. |
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| ▲ | RobotToaster 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There's a better article about it in the WSJ of all places https://archive.is/48m3F Missing from both is that Zhang Youxia was the last senior PLA leader to have seen frontline action in the Sino-Vietnamese war. |
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| ▲ | dragonelite 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Vietnam frontline experience is irrelevant in 2026, when its more drone dominated. Im sure China has plenty of observers/volunteers embedded at the Russian side in the SMO making plenty of notes, reports, and get modern warfare experience.. | | |
| ▲ | largbae 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | All frontline experience is valuable. It reminds the leader that in war, real people, people on your own side, people that you know, people that you will miss, will die. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent [-] | | and in this case the particulars match the archetype: my understanding is that Zhang was the "dove" while Xi is the "hawk." The hawk just ate the dove. We're going to war. |
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| ▲ | janalsncm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Xi appointed himself president for life in 2018, almost six years ago. China wasnt exactly a bastion of liberal democracy before then either. Sacking a top general is basically par for the course. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Sacking a top general is basically par for the course Yes and no. Military readiness and potency doesn’t require liberal democracy. It does require skill and command, and sacking military leaders for political reasons is how powers from Athens to the Soviets screwed themselves. | | |
| ▲ | janalsncm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah but the question of stability was relative to the Soviets. The US has a good amount of instability as well, and has been hemorrhaging scientists lately. So if the argument is that sacking a top general implies that China is too unstable to prevail in a future space race I don’t buy it. | |
| ▲ | XorNot 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except generals get sacked all the time in actual wartime conditions, it's not even clear why this particular instance is notable. China isn't in wartime, it is in a build up phase and there's perfectly good reasons to dismiss underperforming generals. Which isn't to say that's what happened here, but China sacking a general as a data point doesn't mean anything without appropriate context. |
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| ▲ | hbarka an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Our dear leader just purged the Pentagon and other hallowed agencies, what does that make us? https://www.reuters.com/world/us/latest-purge-hegseth-remove... |
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| ▲ | dyauspitr 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Very close to a dictatorship. It will be one if the midterms are not allowed to proceed fairly. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > what does that make us? More vulnerable. More brittle. Not stable. |
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| ▲ | wtodr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades. Look at where China is today. |
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| ▲ | tartoran 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Keep in mind that China is not where it is today because of Xi. He could take it further for sure but so can he press the wrong buttons. It remains to be seen how China fares in the next few decades. | | |
| ▲ | RobotToaster 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He's doing a better job than Zhao Ziyang, that's for sure. | |
| ▲ | fakedang 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yep, China was on a massive and insane growth trajectory prior to Xi. Xi's policies and constant banging of war drums at Taiwan's door has cost China massively in terms of foreign investment and even knowledge transfer opportunities (by the ever-gullible West). |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the same trite bullshit we’ve been hearing for decades Nope. It isn’t. Xi has ruled China like a dictator that breaks the tradition of intraparty competition the CCP has had since Mao. When Xi ended his Wolf Warrior nonsense it seemed to signal a reset. Now we have this nonsense. > Look at where China is today Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. Both are growing their economies, militaries and territorial ambitions. Both have serious issues, including the gerontocratic oligarchic consolidation of power at the expense of national interests. | | |
| ▲ | blibble 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Look at where America is today. Both are richer than they’ve ever been. More militarily potent than ever. just don't look at the first derivative vs china | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The argument is the reflexive defensiveness works-and is raised—in both cases. Premature declarations of victory have never been a historic sign of strength. |
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| ▲ | SilverElfin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not that I disagree, but I’m curious how you define national interests. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > curious how you define national interests My metric would be what the country’s population today and weighted populations of the future, if they could weigh in, would choose. It’s possible to frame ex post facto and impossible to pin down in the present. And it’s inherently subjective and culturally relative. But it’s useful to reason with, including for finding patterns in history. One pattern is the cost of corruption. If a leader is making billions off their power, they’re putting person about polity. That’s currently true in America [1] and China [2][3]. The difference is America has a chance to fix that in ‘28. China used to rotate leaders. But Xi fucked that up. (Note the language similarity between the above comment and how MAGA defends itself. “Trite bullshit.” Beijing has a hidden MACA problem, it’s just had a tougher time dealing with it because Xi reveres Mao.) [1] https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/spy-sheikh-secret-stake-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/world/asia/chinas-preside... [3] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2025/mar/20/us-intel-sa... | | |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Can’t weighted population of the future change based on what is chosen? For example by immigration and deportations? Also is MACA actually MCGA? Or something else? Aren’t there similar trends also in Europe and India? |
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| ▲ | baxtr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The question is rather: Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Where could China have been today if it started opening up decades earlier? Or without Mao being a trash fire of a leader. (Flip side: where would they be without Deng or Zemin, or others in the CCP who put nation above personal interest? The folks Xi is killing because they threaten his personal interests.) | | |
| ▲ | baxtr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe the combination of capitalism + democracy is so successful because it aligns the incentives of leaders and the masses best (to the extent possible). | | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I think not. European colonialism was hardly a democratic project, and the extreme success of the US is attributable less to ideology and more to being an entire continent with a relatively tiny indigenous population that had not exploited any of its natural resources. Ideological/paradigmatic competition is not some neat controlled experiment where you can normalize existing conditions to unity and then draw conclusions from measuring subsequent growth; initial resource distributions make a massive difference and geography, while not the only factor, is highly determinative. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My takeaway from China is democracy is less important than political competition. Between Mao and Xi, the CCP had the latter without the former. Today, America has the former and is struggling to keep the latter. | | |
| ▲ | baxtr 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes agreed. But competition for what? I'd say for the good of the majority of the people. In other systems only those on top profit (maybe 10-20% max) even if they claim otherwise. Thus democracy, through competition, aligns the leader's incentive with their people best. |
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| ▲ | standardUser 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China had fallen behind long before Mao, after being among the most powerful and advanced nations for most of recorded history. It appears to now be stepping back into that familiar role. | |
| ▲ | Fricken an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Neither China or the West handled the transition to industrial civilization well. A key difference is that most Chinese died due to incompetence on the part of their leaders, but in the west they mostly murdered one another on purpose. Once again a Nazi is in charge of the western world's most advanced rocket program. |
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| ▲ | subw00f 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's amazing. The American president is quite literally creating a parallel military force to jail and kill people on the streets, they're arresting opposing journalists, politicians, pressuring tv channels and news organizations to fire people, invading countries without congressional approval, threatening allies with annexation for no fucking reason, dismantling any social programs left, and all of that led by a proven pedophile billionaire that was the customer and friend of a huge human trafficker, as were most of his billionaire friends who he favors with absolutely no shame. And this is just the latest news coming from over there. I won't mention the fact that there are people alive today who couldn't drink from the same fountain as other people because their skin is dark. It was never fucking great. So if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed down your throat by half a dozen mega companies that are in bed with your regime. So yeah, I'm sure China has a lot of issues, but if you didn't live there for some time or even speak the language for that matter, just shut the fuck the up. | | |
| ▲ | elzbardico 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The US is not an autocracy, is a mix between a plutocracy and a gerontocracy. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > if you are American and still talk all this shit about China being a dictatorship and authoritarian this and “purge” that, I wish you would honestly shut the fuck up. Really. You are in no position to have an informed opinion on this because all of your information is force fed Bit defensive there, eh? China is an autocracy and Xi is acting in the predictably self-destructive ways a dictator does. The U.S. is heading down that same path, with Trump practically mimicking Xi. N = 2 doesn’t weaken an argument. And folks who lived through the Nazis saying they see similar veins today doesn’t undermine their credibility. (The hilarity of it is if you take your comment and replace China and America with partisan or pro-American coding, you could pop it out of Hegseth’s office and it would be right at home. Your comment almost seals the point that Xi is all the problems of MAGA, except polling China instead.) | | |
| ▲ | subw00f 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, I'm aware how ignorant I may sound, but it's so goddamn frustrating to read this kind of bullshit everytime I come to an American platform. Ok, China is an autocracy, right? Could you explain to me how China conduct elections? Can you explain to me how they approve laws? Do they have a constitution? A justice system? Try answering these questions without much looking up and even if you do, please note the sources. No need to answer me really. Just ask yourself whether you know this or not and how qualified are you to actually label a HUGE state like China with one single heavily charged word. |
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| ▲ | ck2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| btw just for comparison over in the US Trump has purged dozens of Generals, the head Admiral of the Navy and Coast Guard, head of NSA and Cyber Command and many other top-level officials in the military and there are only 1,000 women in various special forces (had to pass same physical tests as men) but he is trying to get rid of them all too Now that is the mark of dictator, agreed |
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| ▲ | chrisco255 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The Commander in Chief of the military, also known as the President, has the authority to fire at will, that is how it works in America for 250 years now. | | |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Right, and everyone else has the right to an opinion on it. The point seemingly being made above is Trump's swingeing cuts seem to be driven more by ideology than administrative efficiency. Xi's dismissal of his top general (which seems to be equivalent to sacking the Secretary of Defense or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff) is perplexing due to the opacity, but it doesn't seem to be indicative of any bigger or broader trend. | |
| ▲ | SigmundA 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Guess it works that way in China too... |
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| ▲ | adventured 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trump was elected by the people of the United States. Twice. Soundly. Not a dictator. Xi was never elected to his position by the people of China. Being a bad president isn't the same thing as being a dictator. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Trump was elected by the people of the United States. Twice. Soundly. Not a dictator Trump is not a dictator, but not because he was elected, but because of our courts and federal system (and theoretically Congress). |
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