| ▲ | crazygringo 6 hours ago |
| It may be many things, but I very much doubt the motivation is a money grab. A few people paying $45 isn't lining the pockets of some government official, or plugging a hole in any possible budget. Dealing with the presence of travelers who haven't updated their driver's licenses requires a bunch of extra staff to perform the time-consuming additional verifications. The basic idea is for those staff to be paid by the people using them, rather than by taxpayers and air travelers more generally. As well as there being a small deterrent effect. |
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| ▲ | tssva 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| There is no legal requirement to show id or answer any questions to establish identification before flying. In other words there is no extra work required by law which the fee would cover. |
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| ▲ | crazygringo 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The TSA is literally doing all this extra work though, whether or not you think it's required by law. They're not just pocketing the $45 and then blindly waving you ahead. | | |
| ▲ | eitally 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's be more precise. The TSA has created extra work for themselves, and are charging us for it, whether it's legally required or not (because they pretend that it is). | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure. But it's not "pretend". It's genuine regulatory policy they've created because they believe it's necessary for security, and this has been a decades-long project. The article is arguing they don't ultimately have the legal authority to make that regulatory policy. Maybe that'll go to court and be tested, maybe they'll win and maybe they'll lose. If they lose, maybe Congress will pass explicit legislative authorization the next day, and maybe that'll be brought to court, and the Supreme Court will have to decide if it violates the 14th amendment or not. But it's not "fake work", it's actually doing a thing. | | |
| ▲ | ehasbrouck 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, it's not "regulatory policy". It's been done entirely with some combination of secret "Security Directives" and "rulemaking by press release". As the article and the linked references explain, the TSA never issued any regulations, published any of the required notices, or obtained any of the approvals that would have been required even if Congress had passed an (unconstitutional) authorizing statute (which it didn't). | |
| ▲ | Spooky23 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No. Policy or regulation would have a basis in law. This administration has aptly demonstrated their contempt for the law. Nobody gives a shit about some grunt federal employee getting extra work. This is just a way to compel compliance and to push the agenda for ID with higher documentary requirements, ultimately to deny the vote. | |
| ▲ | forgetfreeman 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I mean I could hire someone to continuously dig and refill the a hole in the ground. That would certainly be them doing a thing, but it would also definitely be fake work. There's been plenty of rhetoric thrown around but no real evidence has been produced that suggests the TSA isn't engaging in a bit of circular digging at the taxpayer's expense with this. | | | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | As I mentioned[0] a few months ago after the TSA announced the $45 "fee": ...The courts have repeatedly struck down limits on domestic travel over the
past couple hundred years.
In fact, the $45 "fee" is an acknowledgment that you aren't required to have
special documents to travel within the US. Otherwise, they just wouldn't let
you travel.
So instead, they're making more security theater and punishing you if you
don't comply with their demands...
And now the birds are coming home to roost. No real surprise there, IMHO.[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46128346 |
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| ▲ | Taniwha 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's security theatre, someone has to pay the performers |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | eli 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Flying without ID just gets you the full patdown treatment. It’s not like they’re tracking down people to vouch for you. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't know what you mean by "full patdown treatment", but they're absolutely tracking down your information in databases and interviewing you about it. See replies to: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46864182 It's absolutely not just enhanced physical screening. | | | |
| ▲ | chickensong 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not just a patdown. They take you to a phone booth that has a direct line to some portion of the FBI IIRC, and they ask you a bunch of questions to confirm your identity. At least this is what happened to me about ten years ago when I lost my wallet in a different state and needed to fly home. | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | mothballed 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ... and the law in most states requires only that you give your name and possibly your DOB to the authorities upon detainment. So as a purely academic exercise, what can they even do if you refuse to answer beyond that? Obviously in practice they will fuck with you or just straight up violate the constitution, but theoretically I'm unsure how they can continue to seize you after that. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | ...they don't let you fly. They can't detain you (if you're not otherwise some kind of suspect, and you're not trying to assault them or sprint past security or anything), but they don't let you fly. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | ... if you aren't detained you are free to go. And if you are free to go, you are free to stay, unless the property owner has trespassed you. TSA doesn't own the airport, at least in my state. So how can they trespass you from the airport or otherwise continue to detain you from moving forward? I mean, I know you're right, and I know you will always lose if you try, but I don't understand the legal basis. | | |
| ▲ | harimau777 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think it's a matter of whether or not you are free to go. It's a matter of whether they let you on the plane. | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's just federal law. Cities don't own restaurants either but can fine them and close them if health inspections fail, because there's a law for that. The legal basis is the federal laws written specifically around airport security. | | |
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| ▲ | duskdozer 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | at least, hold or delay you long enough to make you miss your flight. |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | tokyobreakfast 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like someone who would deliberately show up to work in a speedo because "show me where in the employee handbook it says I must wear pants" |
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| ▲ | Braxton1980 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is this the case, I didn't see it in the article. If they have to perform extra work then I'd say it's justified. If it's just a punishment for not getting a real ID I'm not sure if that's fair |
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| $45 x millions of people (some multiple times) = an incredibly consequential amount of money |
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| ▲ | crazygringo 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not millions of people, most people get Real ID. In the context of airport security budgets, it's not that much. And it's used for hiring the additional staff required and putting together the identity verification systems they use. | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It's not millions of people, most people get Real ID Those that did had to pay $30-$60 plus fees (actual cost differs by state) to get one and will have to pay that again and again each renewal. This is certainly making money somewhere for somebody and not at all about security | | |
| ▲ | Fhch6HQ 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | What states do you have to pay for your Real ID every time? Yes, you have to pay to renew your license or photo ID, but the Real ID fee in my state (PA) is one-time. Renewal costs are the same whether it's a Real ID or not. | | |
| ▲ | trailbits 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | WA state it is an extra $56 every time you renew for Real ID | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | California would be one, because they issue Real IDs to non-citizens that are tied to their documentation, which needs to be reviewed each time. |
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| ▲ | ehasbrouck 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As of the imposition of start of this new fee/fine, about 200,000 people a day fly without ID or without REAL-ID: https://papersplease.org/wp/2025/05/28/200000-people-a-day-f... - At $45 a pop, that would bring in >$3B a year. "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money." | | |
| ▲ | Fhch6HQ 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's a really disappointing source. The headline is '200,000 people a day fly without REAL-ID', which starts out quite interesting. It then goes on to explain that the TSA has reported 93% of traveler's complied with REAL ID, citing a TSA blog from a week prior which in fact states the same. They then take this and couple it with a single day, which they state was the busiest travel day of the Memorial Day weekend, and extrapolate that 7% of the travelers that day must've failed to provide a REAL ID. For the sake of conversation, this is a reasonable statement. Going back and using it to suggest 200k fly without it on a typical day is not reasonable, nor is your suggestion that a 6 months later it's still at 7% (or even typical travel volume hasn't changed.) There has to be better data available. I was curious about this, so I looked up travel volume. YTD the daily average is 2,130,136 passengers. At 7%, this is 149,109.5 passengers or $2.449 B a year in fees. This ignores that you only pay the fee once very 10 days and assumes that all travelers pay the fee on every occurrence. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Most” people can have it and there’d still be millions (tens of millions, even over 100mill) of people who don’t. Multiple states don’t even require it. That guarantees several million people right there. I think New York is one, so well over 10mill people don’t require it. Do you seriously think most of those people are getting one anyway? Guarantee you there are millions of people without it if not tens of millions. I’d put money on it. So back to the point, we’re talking likely 100’s of millions of dollars. That is nothing to sneeze at. The TSA is an $11bill operation based on a quick search. $500mill (~11mill people) would be 5% of their annual budget. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | America only has 340 million people to begin with. Then, half the population doesn't even fly in a given year. Those that do are mostly aware of the RealID requirement and either got it whenever they last renewed their driver's license, or renewed early because their DMV kept mailing them warnings about needing to do so if they wanted to fly. Yes, most people who fly either have it, or are getting it before their next flight. Part of the $45 fee is also to incentivize people to get the RealID, as that will obviously be cheaper for them over the long run. That's the point. It's not to make money. The primary purpose is to get people to use RealID, and to cover the costs of the extra screening for those who don't. For however much more money they take in, you need to subtract the cost of the additional staff they need to hire and pay to handle it, plus the tech systems. Also, remember you can just use a passport instead. That hasn't changed. | | |
| ▲ | rubyn00bie 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There’s quite a bit of evidence to say there are still millions without one, especially depending on the state, this article is from 9 months ago: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-id-deadline-weeks-away-mos... I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one. I certainly do not believe there are increased costs associated with my existing ID, that would be alleviated with a Real ID. At no point have I ever heard Real ID exists to reduce costs (though if that’s true, I’d love to read how). IMHO it may not be a “cash grab,” but it’s certainly punitive. And, for what it’s worth, there have been no extra steps I’ve had to take or increased screening when using my existing ID for the past year. Same photo machine, same scanner, as everyone else. I will personally just renew my passport to avoid the fee until I need to renew my drivers license. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one. I guess that's because you haven't renewed your driver's license yet? I did last year, precisely because I had to fly, and had to bring a bunch of new documentation I never needed for my previous driver's licenses, including, yes, multiple proofs of both citizenship and residency, and then had to go through a whole additional process because of a slight name discrepancy between documents that they had to get a supervisor to make a judgment call on. It's a totally different verification process that is actually quite meaningfully different. | | |
| ▲ | rubyn00bie 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I thought that too, having seen the requirements, but it turns out it does not really do anything (at least as far as I can tell): https://reason.com/2025/12/31/dhs-says-real-id-which-dhs-cer... | | |
| ▲ | Fhch6HQ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Allow me to remind you of what you said: > I personally have a hard time believing that a “Real” ID that does not verify citizenship or residency is meaningfully different from my current one. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that residency was part of the discussion. DHS hasn't contested REAL ID as a means to verify your identity or your residency. They have contested it as a means to verify your citizenship and they are correct because it was never intended to be proof of citizenship or legal residency status. You do need to show your residency paperwork or prove citizenship when applying as only lawfully present residents are eligible to receive a REAL ID, but only citizens and permanent residents have indefinite legal status and REAL ID doesn't track your status. I would argue this is a silly gap, but Congress intentionally did not establish a National ID which you would expect to identify nationality. Instead, they created a system which makes it difficult to create ID in multiple states concurrently or under multiple names. I would further argue that the database required to make REAL ID work ends up with all of the negatives of a national ID, without the most useful benefits. So really, we all lose. | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, that's one agency making a highly contested claim for obvious controversial political reasons. It's absolutely a totally different and much stricter vetting process from before. Whether you or some other government agency thinks it still doesn't go far enough is a separate question. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You keep saying “most” which I agreed with for starters and still leaves a ton of people. Also almost half the population flies annually, so we’re starting around 150mill. You need numbers at this point. I am willing to bet millions flying don’t have it. Here’s an article from April 2025: https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/real-id-deadline-may/ |
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| ▲ | hypeatei 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Assuming 100M "classic" ID checks (being generous): congrats, you just paid for two days of running the military! | | | |
| ▲ | sixtyj 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But everyone would have to take advantage of that benefit not having ID have with themselves. | |
| ▲ | fragmede 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The roughly 7.6 million CLEAR members paying $209/yr grosses them north of $1 billion/year. It's not hard to see why TSA wants to get in on it. | | |
| ▲ | jacobgkau 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | CLEAR members are going out of their way to register their info in a biometric identification system. I don't think the people avoiding REAL IDs are the same demographic. | | |
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