| ▲ | Timwi 9 hours ago |
| > Is there a better way? Yes, UBI. Then you can create what you want and your livelihood doesn't depend on it going viral. |
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| ▲ | pfannkuchen 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| How do we ensure that we don’t enter the failure mode of “not enough necessities get made”? Like it seems like people are ideologically for or against UBI, but I’ve never seen anyone discuss how the mechanism would avoid this outcome. Like I’m not saying it’s 100% the outcome that would happen on whatever time frame, just that even e.g. a 10% chance of that happening would make it too risky to attempt at scale. And like I don’t accept “some people just love farming” or “a lot of stuff that isn’t needed gets made now”, I need an actual mechanism description. |
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| ▲ | yetihehe 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > How do we ensure that we don’t enter the failure mode of “not enough necessities get made”? Pay higher when someone does things. UBI + income. If you want to live better, try doing something that will bring you money, but if you fail, you can still live and try something other next time. Current model: if you try something and fail, you are homeless and starving. | | |
| ▲ | pfannkuchen 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Failing -> homeless and starving is a failure mode at the level of the individual. That’s not good, but failure modes of the entire structure are higher priority and the two don’t really compare apples to apples. Capitalism (absent corruption) is actually sort of cleverly recursive there because financial destitution by definition cannot affect producers of vital goods, because the act of producing vital goods is precisely what is rewarded by the system. So at least what you mentioned cannot result in systemic failure from a mechanistic point of view, only an individual level failure (which isn’t to say that the individual is “to blame”, I am not talking moralistically, just that it affects individuals and not the entire structure). On first paragraph, okay how does that scale though. Who does the actual work of producing things people need to live, and how do we make sure that enough people keep doing that specifically, even across plausible variable configurations such as “birth rate increases because people have more free time which means now you need more farming” etc. We need to characterize these dynamics, wouldn’t you say? Have you thought about it, or are you satisfied by hand waving? | | |
| ▲ | tpoacher 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think the "producers" argument is true, and even so it really does depend on the profession and on current trends. What was vital yesterday may be obsolete tomorrow (see hospital secretaries vs ambient scribes for instance). I assume when you think of people taking a potentially "destitution-risky" decision, you think "entrepreneur without savings or backup income", not "hospital secretary". Yet here we are. Also, in many professions, "production" is multi-level. Who is the producer in a hospital, the nurse, or the hospital manager? Yet I can assure you nurses, as vital as they are, get fixed term contracts or get fired all the time. Same with teachers and academics. So, no, the system rewarding the hospital manager and the university deans for the "vital" work of their nurses and teachers isn't "cleverly recursive"; it's exactly the failure mode both you and OP speak of, except it's somehow both systemic and personal, depending in what angle you're looking at. | |
| ▲ | saagarjha an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > financial destitution by definition cannot affect producers of vital goods This is why people who work critical jobs never go hungry. |
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| ▲ | scotty79 20 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Necessities get made because there's someone to buy them. Only 5% of people are employed in agriculture and 15% in manufacturing. 80% of working people could do nothing and we'd still be fine when it comes to necessities. And we don't even have peak automation. |
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| ▲ | OCASMv2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nah, that just turns people into slaves of whoever is signing the checks. |
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| ▲ | wavemode 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Most people want a lot more out of life than basic necessities. |
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| ▲ | Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | UBI does not mean you don't work, nor you can't earn a lot of money. It just means we don't let you starve if you don't work and we stop making you work out of fear of leaving you starve if you don't. I'm a psychiatry resident and developper. I have never been paid for my dev work but have produced quite a lot on my free time (site: w.olicorne.org ). I would do psychiatry pretty much no matter how much I'm paid for it. In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. UBI would free up time and cognitive load of the most productive people I believe. Following a 80/20 kinda rule. Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not *have to* monetize. | | |
| ▲ | jonahx 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > In my view the most productive people of every field are not incentivized by money and would do it anyway. The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking. Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. > Hence UBI here would mean that the dev would not have to monetize. Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question. | | |
| ▲ | Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The idea that money is not an effective incentive to drive behavior is wishful thinking It is obviously an incentive. But I think it's not an effective one and has many morally bad side effects. I highly recommend taking a look at the work of Daniel Pink related to money as an incentive. See The Puzzle Of Motivation (~20min) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y | |
| ▲ | scbrg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Even just among devs, even just among devs who truly love programming, most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. Somehow I can imagine that a world where a the brightest minds of a generation didn't spend their prime optimizing ad clicking wouldn't necessarily be a complete disaster. | |
| ▲ | laserlight 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question. It's alright. Those who would like to monetize can. There are others who wouldn't and UBI would utilize that surplus talent, which otherwise had to perform tasks they weren't skilled at to earn a living. | |
| ▲ | Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > most would be doing very different work, and working for different organizations (or none at all) if money weren't the driver. With UBI I wouldn't be surprised if those would be even more productive doing something else they want. And others who couldn't do the CS curiculum even though they would have loved to because they had to find a job quickly would plausibly be at their place instead. I really view UBI as something that puts oil in the society: people have less friction to be at the spot they're better at. People who want to do nothing will not slow us down anymore. And jobs that nobody wants to do would finally be paid by how much they suck instead of how much money your parents had to educate you. > Ok, but the dev might still want to monetize, and we're back to the original question I don't really see the issue. We're far from having shortage of ways to make people pay: ads, paywall, soft paywall, begging, rate limits. What's the issue with those? I certainly don't like them as a user and as a member of society but am fine with people doing that. Especially with UBI in place: if the dev is putting a paywall, they have to compete with people that have plausibly much more freedom of time and mind to allocate to another free foss project. So in the end it becomes less profitable to be adversarial against end users. |
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| ▲ | TechSquidTV 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But they want to was the point. |
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| ▲ | BudgieInWA 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's why it works, lol. Those already driven by the bet paying off still have their incentives, and those who would love to try something ... can! Because they don't have overdue bills to pay with extra interest. | |
| ▲ | djeastm 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Indeed. Some of us want basic necessities provided to everyone. |
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| ▲ | fragmede 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| what does UBI have to do with getting paid for making cool shit? |
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| ▲ | thunderfork 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can make cool shit without having to do the work of productizing and monetizing it | | |
| ▲ | airstrike 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, and a magic fairy creates the economic value that funds the UBI | | |
| ▲ | Nextgrid 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Every company and their dog is saying that LLMs/"AI" is supposed to be that magic fairy anytime now. |
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