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| ▲ | Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The 6 year, $600K lawsuit was something they initiated against the county. The initial charges against them were initially dropped to misdemeanors and then dismissed entirely, but that was a separate matter resolved earlier. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Even being charged without conviction can result in a serious reduction in job opportunities. | | |
| ▲ | hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Is that accurate? Being charged with a crime but then having charges subsequently dropped shouldn't show up in a background check. Plus, given their line of work, I think in their profession it would basically be a badge of honor. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | You'd have to get it expunged for it to not show up. Even then, it will still show up for security clearances and such. | | |
| ▲ | jimt1234 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Can confirm. I needed a security clearance for government contracting work when I was in my mid-30s. The background check flagged a dismissed charge from when I was a teenager. |
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| ▲ | port443 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes it absolutely matters. My brother was charged with three felonies in his only arrest, all of them dropped. It shows up in his background report and no company has cared (or taken the time to notice) that they are dropped charges and not convictions. He's basically treated like a felon and effectively got bumped out of his career. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Also, I've seen many job applications that ask a question like: "Have you ever been arrested for a crime, regardless of the outcome?" Presumably mere involvement with law enforcement (even if acquitted or charges dropped) is some kind of signal in these guys' risk formulas. |
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| ▲ | xvector 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It does show up in background checks unfortunately, and it is considered. |
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| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Probably not in this case though. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's hard to say if they would be able to gain security clearances in the future. Not to mention automated application systems will drop them from the system immediately with a prior arrest. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | One of them went on to start their own physical pentest firm. I think they're doing fine. I also think if they'd lost clearances, or ran into later clearance problems, that would have made it into their complaint. I don't know, maybe you're right. It's not like I disagree with them about suing. | |
| ▲ | LadyCailin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | THIS should be illegal. If you are arrested and have all charges dropped, you should not show up on any database whatsoever, nor be required to answer “yes” to “gave you been arrested.” | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The SF86 has a 7-year lookback on arrests. Clearance is fundamentally discretionary, though; it's a risk assessment. I don't think you have even a due process right to it. I say all this but --- knowing that the principals in this story might read this thread and drop in and correct me, which would be awesome --- I think it's actually more likely that their careers benefited from this news story, and that they probably didn't lose any cleared business from it. I can't say enough that these two became industry celebrities over this case. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Clearance is fundamentally discretionary, though; it's a risk assessment. I don't think you have even a due process right to it. Security clearance is subject to due process protections (at least, insofar as it is a component of government hiring and continuation of employment), because government employment is subject to due process protections and the courts have not allowed security clearance requirements to be an end-run around that. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you sure about this? I looked into it, but only for about 45 seconds, and there are cases like Navy v. Egan that basically say the opposite. (I'm going to keep saying: this is just an abstract argument; I don't think there's any evidence these two pentesters had any clearance issues.) | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Navy v. Egan (1988) acknowledges a due process protection but limits it to procedural due process, not review of the merits of the clearance determination (i.e., the due process protection does not extend to substantive due process.) Subsequent cases (mostly at the Federal Circuit, I can’t find the Supreme Court getting involved much since) like Cheney v. DOJ (2007) and Cruz-Martinez v. DHS (2020) have developed what that requires. For cases outside of government employment, though the decisions so far are only at the trial level, Perkins Coie LLC vs. DOJ (2025) and Zaid v. Executive Office of the President (2025) are worth checking out in this regard. |
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| ▲ | bryanrasmussen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | pretty sure the companies making money providing this service would bring a freedom of speech defense if you tried to get a law passed keeping the information from showing up in a search, and would win, despite the obvious idiocy of the result. |
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| ▲ | jongjong 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It seems like a lot. It's not like they were in court full time. |
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| ▲ | tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn't a felony case. In fact, I'm not sure it ever was? It's not clear from their amended complaint, but they were ultimately charged with simple trespassing, a misdemeanor. Those trespassing charges were themselves dismissed a few months later. What we're talking about today is the resolution of what looks to me (not a lawyer) mostly like a defamation case. Were they defamed? Absolutely. The problem is, to get anything useful out of a defamation case, you need to demonstrate damages. They were accused of a crime --- per se defamation --- but the point of the suit is to recover damages. I don't want to be glib, and I'm very prepared to be wrong, but the Dallas County Courthouse Incident is likely one of the top 3 world events to have happened to both these pentesters. They've been cause celebres in the field for years and years. It might be pretty tricky to actually demonstrate damages. | | |
| ▲ | lazyasciiart 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Lost clearances at least must count for something. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did they lose clearances? If they did, it's not in their civil complaint. | | |
| ▲ | lazyasciiart an hour ago | parent [-] | | I didn’t see how long it took for the charges to change from felony to misdemeanor before being dropped. It would be standard for clearances to be suspended for investigation when you get charged with a felony. (You have to report even an arrest or misdemeanor, but it’s less likely they’ll suspend it while investigating you for those). | | |
| ▲ | tptacek an hour ago | parent [-] | | Their lawyers issued a press release that sketched out the timeline. |
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| ▲ | sophacles 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They were arrested, arraigned and bonded for felony charges. Those were later reduced to misdemeanor charges and the case was eventually dropped/dismissed (can't remember which) - so they were facing felony charges for a while. |
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| ▲ | edm0nd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd gladly take such a payout. Split 2 ways, that is still 300k. Parked in an investment at 5% a year, that's an easy +$15,000/year for the rest of your life. | | |
| ▲ | nofriend 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Once the lawyers take their cut, you could probably split a ham sandwich between the two of you. | | | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | adrr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How much did they spend on lawyers? | | |
| ▲ | jiveturkey 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I would guess this would be a contingency case, which would typically be 40%. | | |
| ▲ | adrr 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What about the criminal lawyers that they needed when they charged with crimes? Did they get any money? |
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| ▲ | direwolf20 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which investment is that? | | |
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