> X11 has basically no development anymore.

Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.

> That means regressions are entirely ignored.

Should I ever actually have a problem, and it's something that I can't (or CBA to) fix, and my distro's maintainers don't want to try to fix (and then tell me that upstream will never fix), then I'll look more closely at XLibre. XLibre may or may not be a dumpster fire at that point, who knows? If it is a dumpster fire, then I'll look around for other alternatives.

> It's shocking that people still install X11 as a default in [TYOOL]

Nah. It works fine for what I'm doing. I don't do anything that depends on Wayland. The shocking thing would be if I were to waste a ton of time chasing the new shiny... especially when those responsible for the new shiny have been lying for the past 10+ years about how it's ready for everyone's general use. [0]

[0] Perhaps it's ready now, after nearly eighteen years in development. I can't rely on the statements of those responsible for the project to tell me, and I CBA to go searching for (and evaluating the trustworthiness of) information on the topic.

▲ hparadiz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Odd. Every few months, I see a new xorg-server version in my distro's package manager.

Yea these are security updates but the eco system requires a lot of desktop manager scaffolding in user space. That has basically stopped. It's baffling why you would run X11 today. The X11 emulation layer for Wayland works great too by the way.

Just as one example when you screen share from discord or zoom or Google meets there's now a pop-up that asks you to select the screen or window you wish to latch on to for streaming. This provides some security. With X11 anything can just take a screenshot at any time. Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore. As someone that made the switch three years ago I get how you might think the old system is better but in reality you haven't tried the new one so you don't really have a way to compare. I noticed so many quality of life fixes that I can't even imagine running X11 anymore.

▲ simoncion an hour ago | parent [-]

> It's baffling why you would run X11 today.

As I mentioned:

  It works fine for what I'm doing. I don't do anything that depends on Wayland.

> Sure that's convenient but so many apps don't even support X11 anymore.

Really? If true, I don't seem to run any of them. I've certainly not noticed anything I've been running over the past couple of decades suddenly stop working on X11. Given that QT, GTK, FTLK, and other cross-platform GUI toolkits support X11, these must be particularly special programs.

> Just as one example[, screensharing...]

Sure, it is a bit nicer to be able to control which windows which other programs can see. I've been watching the slow-moving, many-years-long shitstorm that has been "actually get screensharing that works the way ordinary people need it to". It's been quite a show.

Thing is, I do know that the X Access Control Extension was standardized in ~2006 and updated through 2009 with the aim to make additional fine-grained access control modules [0] easy. I don't know how long it would have taken to use what existed (or even write something new) and update the major Desktop Environments with tooling to manage it... but I suspect it would have taken far less than seventeen years.

> I noticed so many quality of life fixes...

I'm sure that were I 16, I'd believe that I cared very much about that. Now, -mumble decades later- the fanciest things I want are OpenGL and Vulkan support with performance at least on par with what you get from Windows, a window manager that lets me Alt+mouse-button to move or resize a window, functioning global hotkeys that I can command to run arbitrary programs (and that I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently), and functioning screen-sharing (that can I can permit any arbitrary program to hook into... permanently). And it's so, so silly for me to feel the need to mention anything other than Alt+mouse-button. You'd think that the rest would be "table stakes", but the Wayland development process has demonstrated that many folks disagree.

[0] Ones that could -for instance- prevent undesired keyloggers and screenshot tools

	▲	hparadiz 19 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		The problem is as soon as you run something new and it doesn't scale properly in X11 you're gonna be making a bug report instead of using what everyone else is using. Currently just with the screen sharing thing it's not even just graphical. There's also updates for Pipewire so you can select the audio output you wish to stream with your video feed. That dialog simply doesn't exist at all in X11. You probably don't even know it exists. It's been feature complete now for YEARS. There's a reason that Valve is using Wayland on SteamOS. It's cause it's feature complete now and they are working on stuff like HDR which won't work at all on X11. I'm guessing that X11 support will start to be dropped in the next few years by major code bases. It's hard for me to even explain some of the bugs I saw with X that disappeared overnight when I switched to Wayland. You talk about OpenGL and Vulkan support but hilariously that's what I'm trying to explain to you has better performance now than even Windows. Just basic stuff wayland has that X11 will never have: - No screen tearing by default - Proper vsync - Lower latency for input → display - Per-monitor refresh rates (144Hz + 60Hz works correctly) - Fractional scaling is actually correct (no blurry hacks) Seriously, move on.