> UI framework balkanization has always been, and remains a hideous mess

I thought you were talking about Windows there. There are 4 (5?) different UI paradigms within Windows, and doing one thing sometimes requires you to interact with each of them.

At least on Linux, with GTK/KDE, you can pick a camp and have a somewhat consistent experience, with a few outliers. Plus many apps now just use CSD and fully integrate their designs to the window, so it's hopeless to have every window styling be consistent.

I never had to mind X vs Wayland when starting user applications tho.

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wackget 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If we're talking about mass adoption of Linux then there really has to be no concept of even "picking a camp". The vast majority of users - even techy people - will not understand what a window manager is, never mind be capable of choosing one.

Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.

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Joe_Cool 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hard disagree. You can run the same programs on any DE or Window Manager or even without one (on pure X11 for example). That's not a hurdle it's a feature.

Users who don't know about the feature can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things.

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iwanttocomment an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Nope.

Linux user for decades, but headless since the early aughts. Decided to dip my toes back into the desktop space with Mint Cinnamon.

I can mirror or run lots of phone apps on Windows or macOS, but ironically, not Linux. I decide to run an Android emulator so I can use some phone-only apps.

I read up on reviews, then download and install Waydroid as the top contender.

Does Waydroid work? No. It fails silently launching from the shortcut after the install. Run it from the command line, and, nope, it's a window manager issue. Mint Cinnamon uses X11, not Wayland, and Waydroid apparently needs... Wayland support.

OK, I log out, log into Mint with Wayland support, then re-launch Waydroid. My screen goes into a fugue state where it randomly alternates between black and the desktop. Try a variety of things, and I guess this is just how it is. Google and try any number of fixes, end up giving up.

Yes, that's my old pal Linux on the Desktop. Older, faster and wiser, but still flaky in precisely the same ways.

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hparadiz 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That's cause you're using a distro like mint which is using older builds of stuff.

Get yourself a most recent plasma 6 Wayland setup with pipewire for audio. It even has rdp server now.

What's most likely happening is your user space app wants the newer API but you're running old builds from two years ago.

It will continue to degrade for you unless you fully switch to a Wayland DM.

Anything built on X11 is basically deprecated now and no one is building on it anymore.

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iwanttocomment 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

> That's cause you're using a distro like mint which is using older builds of stuff.

The context here is that I was commenting on the parent's assertion that one "can just use a pre-configured system like Mint Cinnamon and never know about any of these things." Nope!

> It will continue to degrade for you unless you fully switch to a Wayland DM. Anything built on X11 is basically deprecated now and no one is building on it anymore.

That's my impression as well, and again, with the 2nd most popular Linux distro using X11 by default and with "experimental" Wayland support, that only reinforces my rebuttal of parent's claim.

	▲	hparadiz 31 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I don't recommend Mint for this reason. SteamOS or Nobara for the white glove premium experience.

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nehal3m an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Headless daily driver? Hardcore. What do you use for a browser?

I've tried it as a challenge for a couple of days (lynx, mutt, some other TUI stuff) and it made some things like Vim stick (although that may have as much to do with that challenge as Tridactyl did). But I couldn't last longer than a week. It does free you from the burden of system requirements. CPU: Optional.

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andai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah I wanted to say, for people who don't care, there's Linux Mint. (I used to spend all my time tinkering with the DE, now I prefer to spend zero!)

Except even with Linux Mint you have to choose which one ;)

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estimator7292 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, it's not about users picking a camp, it's about developers.

It's been a long, long time since I've seen an application utterly fail to load because it's a GTK/QT/etc framework running under a totally different DE.

Gnome apps look ugly as hell under KDE[0], but they still work. As a user, you don't need to know or care in any way. It'll run on your machine.

[0]I don't know if they're ugly because of incompatibility or if that's just How Gnome Is. I suspect the latter

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anon291 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Yes, there are many UI implementations in Windows but they are almost totally transparent to the user (no pun intended), and they can all run on the same system at once.

I mean this is a solved problem on linux using modern distributions like NixOS or even 'normal' distros with flatpak, appimage, etc. I haven't had to deal with anything like this in years.

The windows UIs are way more different than linux was. There was a time in the 90s where UIs were expected to follow platform specifics. These days, most UIs don't and they're almost kind of like the branding. Thus, this is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. If anything, things like the gnome apps and gtk4 are more consistent than any windows app.

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reddalo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>many apps now just use CSD

If there's something I hate about Linux, it's CSD (Client-Side Decorations, in case people don't know what it is).

If I wanted all my apps to look different from each other, I'd use macOS. I want a clean desktop environment, with predictable window frames that are customizable and they all look the same. CSD destroys that.

	▲	conorbergin 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Having no CSD at all is unacceptable on small screens IMHO, far too much real estate is taken up by a title bar, you can be competitive with SSD by making them really thin, but then they are harder to click on and impossible with touch input. At the moment I have firefox setup with CSD and vertical tabs, only 7% of my vertical real estate is taken up by bars (inc. Gnome), which is pretty good for something that supports this many niceties.
	▲	noisem4ker 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Linux doesn't mean GNOME. KDE favors server-side decorations.
	▲	BizarroLand 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Conversely, I don't want all of my apps to look identical to each other. I want to be able to tell with a submoment of a glance what app I am working on or looking for without having to cognitively engage to locate it, breaking my state of flow in the process.