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ravenstine 5 hours ago

People might still be reading, statistically speaking. But what are they reading?

Almost everyone I talk to offline either reads fantasy, trashy romance, or feel-good self help books. I gotta tell ya, we all have our cheap pleasures now and then, but rarely do I meet anyone who reads anything remotely profound or thought-provoking. The only exception might be my father who reads a lot of historical fiction and non-fiction.

Maybe I'm just hanging in the wrong crowds.

In terms of the sources the author cites, exactly how much should we trust them? For example, book sales may have increased in recent years, but are people actually reading them? I remember a recent statistic where it turned out most people who buy vinyl records don't even own a record player; what if people are buying books so they can sit on a shelf?

And what's so special about books in particular, anyway? What's wrong with reading articles and webpages? I'd be more interested in whether those are declining since they are less tethered to entertainment, like books are.

graemep 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fantasy can be profound and thought provoking.

I know lots of people who read books and articles. The people I know may not be a representative sample either, and the article is about US numbers and most people I know are not in the US.

graemep 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have seen numbers showing kids are reading a lot less in the UK but I think that is the result of a deteriorating educational system that treats reading as a chore, not fun.

bsder 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Fantasy can be profound and thought provoking.

It can be, but there has always been a lot of garbage like any art form. "The Well-Tempered Plot Device" is more than 40 years old now. https://news.ansible.uk/plotdev.html

And even the best authors are infested with "series-itis" and especially the fatal malady "series incompletus".

My sci-fi/fantasy reading habit broke because I refused to start any series that wasn't finished. Suddenly, 99% of sci-fi/fantasy disappeared.

My only hope for David Gerrold to finish the "War Against the Chtorr" series is for him to have notes that he hands to someone else. The last book was 36 years ago! Don't complain to me about George R. R. Martin. Amateurs.

bsder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> And what's so special about books in particular, anyway?

Concentration is a skill that needs to be practiced. A book is the easiest way to practice that skill.

Concentration is a skill that is useful broadly in human endeavors. I'll leave it to the social scientists to document the general damage that a lack of concentration does.

I can tell how much damage gets done depending upon the length since I last read a book. If I go a couple of months between books because of interruptions, my reading speed drastically slows down and my patience is really compromised. I didn't notice this happen before the rise of cell phones. Back then, a couple months of interruptions didn't seem to slow my reading speed much at all.

TacticalCoder 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> And what's so special about books in particular, anyway?

About just every end of day, when I go to kiss my wife and my kid (11 years old) when they go to their respective beds, they're both reading a book.

A book is compliant with a "no screens before bed / no screens in the bedroom" policy and that's very particular.

It's also a real physical item that shall working without needing to be recharged, that shall keep working when the Internet is down, that won't disappear when the site is blocked for whatever reason, etc.

kgwxd 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> but rarely do I meet anyone who reads anything remotely profound or thought-provoking.

A lot of profound and thought-provoking concepts can be, and are, conveyed in a TikTok. It used to be you couldn't profit off super short content.

MichaelRo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>> And what's so special about books in particular, anyway? What's wrong with reading articles and webpages?

Nothing, really, but I suspect that is declining too. I read historical books mostly, some 4-5 per year. Like last time I ordered "Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing, and Dying, The Secret WWII Transcripts of German POWS", in English because unfortunately it wasn't yet translated in my native language. But other than that I still read printed magazines. One that my father used to read so I picked the habit from him and used to be weekly but now it's bi-monthly because ... fewer readers. And I read a ton of online articles.

But you can notice the repeating pattern: read, read, read. Because I got good at it waay before there was an alternative, and because of that, the alternative has supplanted but never replaced the original. But my kid? Never read anything in his life that wasn't forced upon him. And the whole new generation is like this. He can read because can't function in the modern world without it but reading as primary source of gathering information? No chance.

I suspect this gets us back to medieval times where there are a few erudites and lots of imbeciles, my son included.

Fr0styMatt88 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You know it’s really strange when I think about it. I no longer feel motivated to read books mostly, but I could easily spend an hour or two a day reading HN comments and Reddit threads.

Although part of that I’m sure is that as I’m visually impaired, reading physical books is far more tiring than reading off a screen where I can make the text the exact size I want.

Used to be a voracious reader as a kid (though 99% non-fiction).

codyb 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is why Hackernews and all other social media are blocked on my phone which I now leave across the room all day long when at home, and at home when I go out a lot of times.

Now, I read the New Yorker which I had a pile of half read issues. There's one at the table where I eat, one in the loo, one on the couch, and when my brain gets tired of staring at the wall... I pick up a copy when I don't want to do anything particularly creative.

Finishing a good New Yorker article, or a book laying by my bed often expands my worldview, my vocabulary, and my understanding of current events. Reading a ton of comments online has never really produced that same experience even in a place like HackerNews which has (IMO) much higher quality comments than many places.

So you can get back into it! And it seems to be like riding a bike, very easy to get back into. And the more I read, the more I'm happy I'm reading.

kgwxd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For me, it's the realization of how much filler (tangents, embellishment, hyperbole, pretentiousness, ego, straight up BS, etc) is in long form content that makes it's really hard to make a commitment to anything new. Once you see it, it's ALL you see. I was rewatching some Feynman lectures this morning, and I couldn't get past it anymore. What I used to find engaging, was a major distraction. And the more I learn about stuff, the quicker I see when it's happening, even subjects I'm not familiar with.

Fr0styMatt88 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Pop-sci / self-help I feel is particularly egregious in this regard. Like you could take the entirety of many self-help books and summarise them into a few bullet points.

Though having said that, if the ultimate goal of writing is to transfer one person’s experience of human thought to another, then the filler often makes sense. They’re trying to take you on the same mental journey that they went on. At least that’s the good-faith interpretation.

I think filler is also akin to the difference in experience between listening to an audiobook at 1x speed vs say 3x speed. The slower pace gives your brain time to work.

But I totally agree, once you know a bunch about a subject the filler becomes unnecessary.

bsder 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

1) The problem with teaching is that "filler" often isn't.

Teaching is art and not science in spite of what so many tech folks think. If I'm teaching a hard subject, I don't know a priori what will click with each student. I'm trying to give you multiple tools for you to try to use while working on problems to get you to your next level of understanding. Some of those tools are idiosyncratic to my experience and not in the textbook. Most of my suggestions are going to wind up being useless to a particular student, but I'm hoping that at least one of them connects properly.

For example, the biggest complaint of linear algebra students is "This is boring and doesn't have any use." Well, I can talk about how its used in graphics, but the mathematicians will call that filler. I can talk about solving differential equation systems for the engineers, but the CS students will call that filler. The instructor, of course, thinks all that stuff is filler and would rather get back to teaching the subject, but understands that getting people interested and enthusiastic is a part of the teaching process.

2) The "filler" part of "traditional" media is completely different for each person while "social" media filler is useless to everybody.

This is something that so many people don't seem to grasp. Each individual will fixate on and take something different from a book or lecture. That's good. As long as each part of media resonates and has a purpose with somebody consuming it, it's not "filler".

The problem is that "social" media rewards behaviors that create useless "filler". So, social media is in a war--people get more sensitive to ignoring useless filler; the social media sites ramp more aggressive garbage; people get more sensitive; lather, rinse, repeat.

The problem is that your social media "useless filler" pattern matcher learns to be super aggressive and classifies anything that doesn't immediately engage with you, personally and immediately as garbage. That's fine when doomscrolling; that's not fine when reading a book or listening to a lecture.

That's not to say that there aren't poor lectures or poor quality books. There very definitely are. And you should definitely leave those behind.

However, you need to turn those super aggressive filler filters off when an author or lecturer is genuinely trying to engage you in good faith. If an author or lecturer did the work, is well-prepared, and is making solid points and progress, you need give them the leeway to do their job.