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charcircuit 4 hours ago

If the user doesn't trust an operating system, why would they use it. The operating system can steal sensitive information. Trusted computing is trusted by the user to the extent that they use the device. For example if they don't trust it, they may avoid logging in to their bank on it.

mzajc 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If the user doesn't trust an operating system, why would they use it.

Because in the case of smartphones, there is realistically no other option.

> For example if they don't trust it, they may avoid logging in to their bank on it.

Except when the bank trusts the system that I don't (smartphone with Google Services or equivalent Apple junk installed), and doesn't trust the system that I do (desktop computer or degoogled smartphone), which is a very common scenario.

LoganDark an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To trust an Android device, I need to have ultimate authority over it. That means freedom to remove functionality I don't like and make changes apps don't like. Otherwise, there are parts of practically every Android that I don't approve of, like the carrier app installer, any tracking/telemetry, most preinstalled apps, etc.

I recently moved to Apple devices because they use trusted computing differently; namely, to protect against platform abuse, but mostly not to protect corporate interests. They also publish detailed first-party documentation on how their platforms work and how certain features are implemented.

Apple jailbreaking has historically also had a better UX than Android rooting, because Apple platforms are more trusted than Android platforms, meaning that DRM protection, banking apps and such will often still work with a jailbroken iOS device, unlike most rooted Android devices. With that said though, I don't particularly expect to ever have a jailbroken iOS device again, unfortunately.

Apple implements many more protections than Android at the OS level to prevent abuse of trusted computing by third-party apps, and give the user control. (Though some Androids like, say, GrapheneOS, implement lots that Apple does not.)

But of course all this only matters if you trust Apple. I trust them less than I did, but to me they are still the most trustworthy.

charcircuit 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

>to protect against platform abuse, but mostly not to protect corporate interests

What do you mean by this? On both Android and iOS app developers can have a backend that checks the status of app attestation.

bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you actually, bottom-of-your-heart believe that ordinary consumers think like this? They use TikTok and WhatsApp and Facebook and the Wal-Mart coupon app as a product of deep consideration on the web of trust they're building?

Users don't have a choice, and they don't care. Bitlocker is cracked by the feds, iOS and Android devices can get unlocked or hacked with commercially-available grey-market exploits. Push Notifications are bugged, apparently. Your logic hinges on an idyllic philosophy that doesn't even exist in security focused communities.

charcircuit an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes, I do believe from the bottom of my heart the users trust the operating systems they use. Apple and Google have done a great job at security and privacy which is why it seems like users don't care. It's like complaining why you have a system administrator if the servers are never down. When things are run well the average person seems ignorant of the problems.

wolvoleo 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Google certainly hasn't done a great job on privacy. Android devices leak so much information.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/10/phone...

https://peabee.substack.com/p/everyone-knows-what-apps-you-u...

About Apple I just don't know enough because I haven't seriously used them for years

charcircuit 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yet, in the big picture Google is doing a good enough job that those information leaks have not caused them harm. When you really zoom in you can find some issues, but the real world impact of them is not big enough to influence most consumers.

michaelmrose 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They used Windows XP when it was a security nightmare and many used it long after EOL. I just talked to someone whose had 4 bank cards compromised in as many months who is almost certainly doing something wrong.

charcircuit 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm talking about people's feelings. People can feel like a Masterlock padlock is secure even if it may be trivial to get past.

bigyabai 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> which is why it seems like users don't care.

...and not because, in truth, they don't care?

How would we even know if people distrusted a company like Microsoft or Meta? Both companies are so deeply-entrenched that you can't avoid them no matter how you feel about their privacy stance. The same goes for Apple and Google, there is no "greener grass" alternative to protest the surveillance of Push Notifications or vulnerability to Pegasus malware.

charcircuit 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

They would stop using them, or reduce what kinds of things they do on them if they didn't trust them. No one is forcing you to document your life on these palatforms.