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nelox 7 hours ago

[flagged]

pibaker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Edit: someone down this thread pointed out the answer is likely written by AI. If you copy the whole post from GP into ChatGPT it will give you an answer very similar to the post I am replying to.

> Shinkansen lines are completely separate from conventional rail: no level crossings, no shared tracks, no freight, and no interaction with slower services.

Not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYol11bVoNw

https://ameblo.jp/nakamurapon943056/entry-12488005292.html

> but they still tend to interact more with legacy rail networks and inherit more constraints.

Spanish high speed trains mostly run on their own tracks because of gauge differences. France and Germany are the ones who actually runs high speed trains on old tracks, a lot.

It is surprising how many upvotes you can get on the internet just by glazing the Japanese.

m4rtink 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are some lines that were originally built as regular narrow gauge railways and later converted to standard gauge supporting Shinkansen trainsets.

This is called Mini-Shinkansen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-Shinkansen

This comes with limitations, as the maximum track speed on these converted lines is apparently around 130 km/h.

None of the actual Shinkansen stadard lines have level crossings.

frutiger 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The answer was almost certainly generated by an LLM.

pibaker 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I tried asking ChatGPT if Japanese high speed rail has level crossings and it correctly identified the line I used as my counterexample (Yamagata Shinkansen). I think GP is just plainly misinformed in a more boring way.

dchest 6 hours ago | parent [-]

If you paste the comment it replies to into ChatGPT, it generates almost exact same answer as that comment. Also, "Finally, ..." and "it's not A, it's B" is a good tell.

pibaker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Damn, I tried doing what you did and got a similar response too, down to exact wordings like "short answer, long answer" and "conservative maintenance". I will admit i was too quick to dismiss the accusation in my previous reply.

tzs 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If you paste the comment it replies to into ChatGPT, it generates almost exact same answer as that comment.

But would it have generated almost the same comment 4 hours ago, when the comment was posted here?

A few months ago I posted a comment in a thread about some new law that would not have been needed if a law from many years early had not seemingly arbitrarily limited itself to some particular cases. I speculated on some reasons why the original law might have been written that way.

A couple hours later I asked an LLM about it (Perplexity) and it gave the same reasons I had guessed. I checked the links it provided to get a suitable reference if the topic ever came up again...and it turned out my comment was its source!

ronsor 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"thing; thing, Japan" is a meme for a reason. I was wondering how long it would take to appear in this thread.

qiqitori 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's nitpicking, IMO. It's still 99% true. There are just two "Mini-Shinkansen" lines, they only run once or twice per hour, are shorter than non-Mini-Shinkansen, and only a relatively short part (distance-wise) of their journey is spent on the slow tracks. There are non-Shinkansen trains on the Mini-Shinkansen portion of their journey, but not very many. (Also the word "shinkansen" implies new tracks.)

baud147258 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> France and Germany are the ones who actually runs high speed trains on old tracks, a lot.

At least in France, high speed trains on older tracks won't go as fast as on the dedicated high speed tracks

bjourne 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Short answer: Japan treats high-speed rail as a tightly controlled system, not just fast trains on tracks.

Is exactly what a text bot would say. Eloquent, but when you think about it, is just nonsense. Which operator treats HSR as "fast trains on tracks" and which does not treat it is a "tightly controlled system"?

virtualritz 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Japanese high speed tracks get checked (and repaired/replaced, if required) every night. During the midnight-to-6am window.

That's why something like a fractured high speed rail track would never go undetected in Japan.

https://www.plassertheurer.com/en/today/stories/japanese-pre...

https://global.jr-central.co.jp/en/company/data-book/_pdf/20...

https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr61/16_21.html

https://international-railway-safety-council.com/wp-content/...

Symbiote 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> It added that three trains that had gone over the tracks at 17:21 on Sunday, 19:01 and then 19:09 had similar notches "with a compatible geometric pattern".

Then the crashed train passed at 19:45.

I don't see why an overnight inspection must have caught this, it could have happened just before the 17:21 train, or even have been caused by it.

We will need to wait for the investigation to continue, and I hope Japan's rail people will not be so arrogant as to assume they can't learn something from it.

vshade 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Spanish high speed lines are mostly separate from the legacy network as they have different gauges, there are a few parts of the railway with dual gauge tracks but it is that. The Santiago accident was on the conventional rail.

pmarg 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just a small clarification, Spain has two distinct track stems for normal trains (Iberian gauge) and high speed rail (international gauge). High speed rail is completely separate from the iberian gauge network which is primarly used for city and regional trains. Only a few cargo trains use the high speed network.

Regarding the second point, 2013 accident was caused by higher than allowed speed and drivers had been complaining about the line not having the security system that automatically enforces speed limits. In this year's accident, the line has a much stricter securty system.

The main issue with spanish rails, high speed and specially traditional rail is the lack of maintenance.

fpoling 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I have lived in Spain for the last two years and observed the luck of maintenance in a lot of things.

For example, people typically pay for house/apartment insurance. But insurance companies never send a person to check for things like leaking pipes or whatever. Rather they simply wait until an accident happens and dispatch an emergency crew and cover a lot of damage that could be easily prevented. Then people tolerate non-trivial damage to homes/apartments like leaky roof not reporting it to insurance companies for weeks.

Then with cars people often do not follow the maintenance schedule and insurance companies do not ask for that. Typically people drive until damage happens due to a minor accident or maintenance are forced by state required technical inspection once in few years. The car companies even offer free maintenance checks as a part of guarantee but people skip even that.

Yet when someone spends efforts to complain, thinks do gets done. For example there a city service to remove graffiti on public areas. If one files a complain, they react and remove the graffiti. However sometimes one needs to send a complain twice.

AshamedCaptain 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think you are describing how the entire world works. I have lived in 3 western European countries through my life, and they all work this way.

Never I had the pipes in my home inspected, even now that I live in areas where it freezes regularly.

Never has anyone (not even my insurance) forced me to follow any particular maintenance schedule (albeit I'm quite sure somewhere in the fine print it will read that if the accident is because of poor maintenance they'll just ignore the claim).

Here the city service to remove Graffiti is almost overnight, and works better than many other public services...

decimalenough 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Minor correction: there are two Shinkansen lines in Japan that run trains partly on shared legacy track, namely the Akita and Yamagata "mini-Shinkansens". However, these sections operate at normal speed, not high speed.

otikik 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>If a train exceeds its permitted speed for any reason, the system intervenes immediately

That might be because Japan did have a huge railway accident in 2005 due to excessive speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment

> Of the roughly 700 passengers, 106 passengers and the driver were killed, and 562 others were injured

The Santiago de Compostela derailment (first link on the parent comment) happened in 2013 for the same reason.

All that said, I would not be surprised if the culprit for this particular case is lack of maintenance. However I would wait until the official investigation is over before drawing conclusions.

ricardobeat 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For context: the aforementioned crash in Japan was not on a high-speed / Shinkansen line but a normal commuter train. Both the 2013 accident in Spain and the recent one were high speed trains.

I’m not sure these are comparable, high-speed rail needs much tighter tolerances as the risk is orders of magnitude higher. As the parent comment stated there have been zero major crashes on the japanese shinkansen lines.

pibaker 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The second train crashed on a non-high speed part of the network.

There is also no reason to treat speed limits on high speed and normal trains differently. There are plenty of speed related crashes on low speed lines. If anything the stakes are even higher on commuter trains because they tend to carry more people, many of which will be standing, and are more likely to crash into another structure as was the case in the Japanese incident mentioned.

shevy-java 6 hours ago | parent [-]

That's still an issue of design though. I am pretty certain that this would not have been possible in quite that way in Japan.

pibaker 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Your comment is down thread of a comment containing a link to a Wikipedia page of a Japanese train crashed caused by speeding. I do not understand how can you think this is impossible in Japan.

ak217 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> That might be because Japan did have a huge railway accident in 2005 due to excessive speed.

No, Japan more or less invented ATC in the 1960s for the purpose of running the Shinkansen safely.

something765478 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If a train exceeds its permitted speed for any reason, the system intervenes immediately.

Does the system automatically slow down the train, or does it notify the engineer? I would imagine that there are some scenarios where going over the speed limit is the correct choice.

m4rtink 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

ATC stops the train - this is actually an important plot point in both "shinaksen explosion" movies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bullet_Train

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Train_Explosion

In the movies terrorists place a bomb on board and the train crew has to maintain a minimum speed or the bomb explodes (this is where that american movie with a bus got the idea). And they have to manipulate the ATC or else it will stop the train when they enter sections of the track with lower minimum speed, or else ATC stops the train and the bomb explodes.

lolc 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm curious what scenarios your imagining. Because I can't think of a single situation where a track limit should not be applied automatically, at least to trains with passengers on them.

7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Please don’t post slop when people ask thoughtful questions.