People are afraid to sound too critical. It's very noticeable how every article that points out a mistake anywhere in a subject that's even slightly politically charged, has to emphasize "of course I believe X, I absolutely agree that Y is a bad thing", before they make their point. Criticising an unreplicable paper is the same thing. Clearly these people are afraid that if they sound too harsh, they'll be ignored altogether as a crank.

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1dom 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Clearly these people are afraid that if they sound too harsh, they'll be ignored altogether as a crank.

This is true though, and one of those awkward times where good ideals like science and critical feedback brush up against potentially ugly human things like pride and ego.

I read a quote recently, and I don't like it, but it's stuck with me because it feels like it's dancing around the same awkward truth:

"tact is the art of make a point without making an enemy"

I guess part of being human is accepting that we're all human and will occasionally fail to be a perfect human.

Sometimes we'll make mistakes in conducting research. Sometimes we'll make mistakes in handling mistakes we or others made. Sometimes these mistakes will chain together to create situations like the post describes.

Making mistakes is easy - it's such a part of being human we often don't even notice we do it. Learning you've made a mistake is the hard part, and correcting that mistake is often even harder. Providing critical feedback, as necessary as it might be, typically involves putting someone else through hardship. I think we should all be at least slightly afraid and apprehensive of doing that, even if it's for a greater good.

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lo_zamoyski an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The fountain is charity. This is no mere matter of sentiment. Charity is willing the objective good of the other. This is what should inform our actions. But charity does not erase the need for justice.

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anal_reactor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

American culture has this weird thing to avoid blame and direct feedback. It's never appropriate to say "yo, you did shit job, can you not fuck it up next time?". For example, I have a guy in my team who takes 10 minutes every standup - if everyone did this, standup would turn into an hour-long meeting - but telling him "bro what the fuck, get your shit together" is highly inappropriate so we all just sit and suffer. Soon I'll have my yearly review and I have no clue what to expect because my manager only gives me feedback when strictly and explicitly required so the entire cycle "I do something wrong" -> "I get reprimanded" -> "I get better" can take literal years. Unless I accidentally offend someone, then I get 1:1 within an hour. One time I was upset about the office not having enough monitors and posted this on slack and my manager told me not to do that because calling out someone's shit job makes them lose face and that's a very bad thing to do.

Whatever happens, avoid direct confrontation at all costs.

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0xDEAFBEAD an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I'll be direct with you, this sounds like an issue specific to your workplace. Get a better job with a manager who can find the middle ground between cursing in frustration and staying silent.

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fn-mote 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On one hand, I totally agree - soliciting and giving feedback is a weakness.

On the other hand, it sounds like this workplace has weak leadership - have you considered leaving for some place better? If the manager can’t do their job enough to give you decent feedback and stop a guy giving 10 min stand ups, LEAVE.

Reasons for not leaving? Ok, then don’t be a victim. Tell yourself you’re staying despite the management and focus on the positive.

	▲	whstl an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I agree. If the company culture is not even helping or encouraging people to give pragmatic feedback, the war is already lost. Even the CEO and the board are in for a few years of stress.
	▲	anal_reactor 32 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		The biggest reason for not leaving is that I understand that perfect things don't exist and everything is about tradeoffs. My current work is complete dogshit - borderline retarded coworkers, hilariously incompetent management. But on the other hand they pay me okay salary while having very little expectations, which means that if I spend entire day watching porn instead of working, nobody cares. That's a huge perk, because it makes the de facto salary per hour insanely huge. Moreover, I found a few people from other teams I enjoy talking to, which means it's a rare opportunity for me to build a social life. Once they start requiring me to actually put in the effort, I'll bounce.

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bethekidyouwant 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Lose face” is not western

	▲	anal_reactor 5 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		The phrase no, the concept yes.

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mikkupikku 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What you're describing is mostly a convergence on the methods of "nonviolent communication".

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lo_zamoyski an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

While I agree there’s a childish softness in our culture in many respects, you don’t need to go to extremes and adopt thuggish or boorish behavior (which is also a problem, one that is actually concomitant with softness, because soft people are unable to bear discomfort or things not going their way). Proportionality and charity should inform your actions. Loutish behavior makes a person look like an ill-mannered toddler.

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cindyllm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

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mike_hearn 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a legitimate fear though - it's exactly what happened in this case. "The reviewers did not address the substance of my comment; they objected to my tone".

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mgfist 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

In general Western society has effectively outlawed "shame" as an effective social tool for shaping behavior. We used to shame people for bad behavior, which was quite effective in incentivizing people to be good people (this is overly reductive but you get the point). Nowadays no one is ever at fault for doing anything because "don't hate the player hate the game".

A blameless organization can work, so long as people within it police themselves. As a society this does not happen, thus making people more steadfast in their anti-social behavior