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Nextgrid 3 hours ago

The main vulnerability of the Western world isn't technical, it's that we voluntarily surrendered our communication and social fabrics to advertising-driven businesses that will happily host and promote anything as long as it generates engagement. This makes it trivial for foreign agents to sway public opinion where as back in the day influencing media required actual capital and connections.

Unfortunately, a lot of our own people (and especially politicians) make money out of this situation so there's very little incentive to change this. Just look at the reaction every time regulations designed to curtail Big Tech ad-driven monopolies (EU DMA, GDPR, etc) are discussed. Our greed is what makes us vulnerable.

terminalshort 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Who is the "we" that you think surrendered control here? Freedom of the press necessitates that anyone can publish freely even if what they publish is foreign propaganda.

Nextgrid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I wasn't talking about press, I was talking about how ad-driven social media became effectively the only communication tool and we still refuse to enact/enforce effective regulation to curb its hegemony.

terminalshort 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It became the primary communication tool because that is what people chose to use when presented with the alternatives. If you want to force people to use different channels then that is a violation of freedom of the press.

Nextgrid 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Again I am not talking about press. I am talking about communication tools.

Yes the free market has decided that these tools are the "best" option as long as the negative externalities (such as exposure to malicious actors - foreign or otherwise) are not being priced in. We need adequate regulation to price in such externalities.

For that matter, press and conventional media is subject to many regulations that don't apply to social media. Conventional media wouldn't get away with even a sliver of what social media is allowed to get away with time and time again.

terminalshort 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Again I am not talking about press. I am talking about communication tools.

Which is the entire fucking point of freedom of the press

Please give an example of something social media gets away with that any other media would be punished for.

Nextgrid 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I am still not sure why you keep going on about press. I did not refer to press in my comment and I make no opinion on it here.

I am referring to the fact that back in the day communication used to be mediated by domestic, neutral carriers who got paid to carry communication neutrally regardless of source or content.

Nowadays, communication is primarily mediated by a handful of foreign companies that prioritize advertising revenue at all costs and will choose which media to carry and promote based on expected ad revenue. They are effectively acting as pseudo-press without the checks & balances and oversight that actual press is subject to.

> Please give an example of something social media gets away with that any other media would be punished for.

When’s the last time you saw an obvious scam advertised in a conventional print newspaper or magazine? Now check Facebook or YouTube ads. If such an ad made it through any reputable magazine heads will be rolling and they’d expose themselves to lawsuits, but social media keeps getting a pass.

Now, let’s say you’re a foreign threat actor and want to sway public opinion. You can’t just get in touch with the NYT/etc and ask them nicely. You’d need to buy and cultivate such influence over time and do so covertly because their people would get in trouble if there’s an obvious paper/money trail.

With Facebook? Create a page, make your propaganda video “engaging”, boost it with bot farms for the initial push and then Facebook will happily keep hosting and promoting your propaganda as long as its advertising revenue outweighs the costs of hosting it. That’s orders of magnitude cheaper than buying influence with traditional media.

terminalshort an hour ago | parent [-]

You have to be joking. Print magazines have always been plastered with shitty scam ads for MLM pyramid schemes, bullshit weight loss treatments, psychic readings, and every other get rich quick scheme and ripoff known to man. And, of course, there were no adblockers. Were you not alive before the internet? You think they weren't full of foreign propaganda too? I'd like to introduce you to my friend AIPAC...

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

According to Reporters without Frontiers, the US ranks 57th out of 180 countries on press freedom. It's really not the model we should all be aspiring to.

bethekidyouwant 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

I mean, I guess the press is freer in Norway but it’s a backwater and no one cares what they say

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Being subject to the topic promotion and suppression technologies [1] and bizarre political whims of billionaire media owners is an unusual definition of "freedom."

[1] See for example:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/meta-systemic-censorship...

terminalshort 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

All media is subject to the whims of its owners. That's freedom of the press. The only other option is that the government tells the owners what they can and can't publish.

adrianN an hour ago | parent [-]

Another option is that the government limits the power individuals can have. How many people control, say, 80% of the media? Do you need more than one hand to count them?

RobotToaster 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake "public opinion" for the benefit of the bourgeoisie." - Vladimir Lenin

direwolf20 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to beg in the streets, to sleep under bridges, and to steal bread.

smsm42 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, Vladimir Lenin is likely one of the most appropriate people to quote on the question of freedom. Maybe only his successor Joseph Stalin is better in that regard.

direwolf20 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think "we" is everyone.

megous 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are about 50 people on EU sanctions list that tried this, who can't travel, or engage in any normal economic activity.