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jraph 18 hours ago

Edit: this whole theory seems to come from some internet forum comment! I know a lot of people here are seduced (I was a bit too) but basing your social interactions and how you see others and yourself on this stuff might not be the best thing to do!

Original comment below for posterity and because there are answers.

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I'm not sure this stuff is really that helpful. You might be tempted to put people into these categories, but you might have a somewhat caricatural and also wrong image of both which could worsen interactions.

By the way, that article doesn't cite any studies!

It's probably helpful to know people are more or less at ease asking direct questions or saying no or receiving a no, but it's all scales and subtleties. It could also depend on the mood, or even who one interacts with or on the specific topic).

The article touches this a bit (the "not black and white" paragraph).

We human beings love categories but categories of people are often traps. It's even more tempting when it's easy to identity to one of the depicted groups!

I wonder if this asker-guesser thing is in the same pseudoscience territory as the MBTI.

In the end, I suppose there's no good way around getting to know someone and paying attention for good interactions.

jackbravo 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not that helpful?

Yes, it is not a black or white thing, more a spectrum. But for many people, including me, just naming the categories is very clarifying, even eye opening, akin to beginning to know an alien civilization. It allows you to consider a different point of view, a way of interacting, taking decisions and actions very different to what you are used to.

Paracompact 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The closest, actually academically studied concept that I know of is that of high versus low context cultures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c...

jraph 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> The model of high-context and low-context cultures offers a popular framework in intercultural communication studies but has been criticized as lacking empirical validation.

Damnit, that seemed interesting! Thanks for sharing though, I'll still read about this.

Paracompact 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Indeed, I personally take all this stuff not as scientifically merited theory, but just as some sort of artistic social commentary that at least has enough truthiness to be interesting/helpful. Sometimes the illusion of control and understanding is all you need in order to feel more secure in your social interactions, benefiting everyone as long as you don't fly off the handle with pseudoscience.

caminante 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Not to spam, but the 2023 HN discussion brought up the excerpt from the first paragraph on Wikipedia:

> The model of high-context and low-context cultures offers a popular framework in intercultural communication studies but has been criticized as lacking empirical validation.

The dichotomy feels true enough even if the data is fuzzy.

jraph 9 hours ago | parent [-]

It feels true indeed, which is why this is a trap.

Later in that Wikipedia article:

> A 2008 meta-analysis concluded that the model was "unsubstantiated and underdeveloped".

Difficult to beat a meta analysis (assuming it was well done of course).

To be clear, "unsubstantiated and underdeveloped" is scientific speak for "bullshit".

danaris 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, it can be.

It can also mean exactly what it said: there might indeed be truth to the thesis, but it has not yet been substantiated or fully developed.

Having to use circumlocution like that—and thus making the meaning unclear—seems like an aspect of a Guess, or high-context, culture, doesn't it? ^_^

jraph 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> Having to use circumlocution like that—and thus making the meaning unclear—seems like an aspect of a Guess, or high-context, culture, doesn't it? ^_^

Ah ah :-)

Well, not really. Scientifically stating something doesn't exist is very bold, usually you can't formally do this. Your best way is to say "so far, we have no evidence of this existing".

Several studies or a meta analysis stating "we have no proof of this existing" is a strong hint towards this indeed not existing, usually that can't be for sure.

To prove something wrong usually you need a counter example, but in this stuff it's hard even imagining what's a counter example.

topaz0 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

Generously, it could be that some relevant phenomenon does exist, but the studies are testing a hypothesis that is too strong or misaligned with the real phenomenon. Like, say, maybe the studies are attempting to show that people divide along these lines for all purposes, when the actual phenomenon only applies to matters of sufficient gravity; or maybe the studies are attempting to show that cultures divide along these lines, but actually individuals vary much more within cultures than between them. There's a million related hypotheses that you could try to parse, and finding that some of the strong ones are not supported by evidence is interesting but not evidence that the concepts aren't useful at some level.

Regardless of the above, it seems uncontroversial to say that some interactions have one or the other character -- and that it could sometimes be useful to name that character.

Pooge 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> but basing your social interactions and how you see others and yourself on this stuff might not be the best thing to do!

Why not? Just knowing that there is such different ways of thinking is useful especially when interacting with people.

I was a guesser until maybe 2 of 3 years ago until I talked about it with friends and family and I learned just today that it was called "asker" and "guesser".

If you spend time with people from different cultures, there clearly is a stark divide in behavior. Even inside said culture there might be situations in which someone becomes an asker.

Therefore this framework is good to understand how people think socially and have a better understanding towards one another. Some people may think you are rude to ask–or an idiot not to–and you will probably lose relationships if you don't realize it.

jraph 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Just knowing that there is such different ways of thinking is useful

We agree. People have different ways of thinking and interacting. Maybe that asker-vs-guesser thing made you / others realize that (and that's good! Possibly it made me realize that too, although having a flatmate years before had already done the trick tbh), but we didn't need it to know this.

> there clearly is a stark divide in behavior

How are you sure it's not confirmation bias [1]? When you have a hammer, everything looks like nails. When you have an asker-guesser theory, everybody look like askers and guessers, including yourself.

Odds are it is most likely, in fact, confirmation bias, since that theory was found to be unsubstantiated and underdeveloped, and since this is a sexy topic, it's hard to believe nobody tried to validate it rigorously (and the way scientific publishing is currently organized sadly doesn't encourage publishing negative results).

> Why not?

Because apparently, from what we actually know (robust, established knowledge), there's no good reason to think the following is actually true, even if it strongly feels like it for a host of reasons, which is my whole concern:

> this framework is good to understand how people think socially and have a better understanding towards one another

It's too easy to pick two half convincing categories that feel somewhat opposite and have the feeling that these two categories provide insight on how people work. Such theories are sugar for the brain.

I'd be most happy to be proven wrong in the future though! In the meantime, I'll pick cautiousness.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Pooge 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh, I see what you mean.

I agree with what you say regarding confirmation bias but then how do you separate that from what is considered the scientific consensus? What I mean is that Newton's Law is not scientifically accurate anymore (it's good enough, though) but the fact that it validated what we observed (i.e. gravity) is also confirmation bias.

What I'm getting at is that there is a fine line between confirmation bias and scientific theory. I hope I made sense, lol

jraph 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Ooh that's a good question, how do you control for confirmation bias in studies?

I'm a bit embarrassed to have to admit that this goes beyond my knowledge. I'm sure there are answers to this, this must be well known in these areas of research. We also know that research itself can be biased too. I'll have to ask friends working on these topics! Thanks for the interesting discussion about this I'll probably live in the future.

On this topic specifically though, that meta analysis that concluded there was a lack of evidence was despite the potential confirmation bias (unless the authors of the meta-analysis where already suspicious about the theory… oh well… one can hope them following the scientific method provides strong enough guarantees. It's not completely bulletproof but it's the most reliable thing we have. I'll ask for sure!).

> but the fact that it validated what we observed (i.e. gravity) is also confirmation bias

Pretty sure that's wrong. The way it works is: we have this equation. It predicts where we expect such stuff to be in X seconds. In X seconds, we check it's indeed there. It's there: actual confirmation, not confirmation bias. That's how you check your hypothesis. Of course the initial hypothesis comes from intuition… formed by observing the world. Enough confirmations makes your model more reliable, and is the thing that will be used until a counter example shows its nose and a better model is found. Even then, the model can still be used for cases where we know it does the job; Newton's model is simpler to use than Einstein's so we keep using it.

I guess if you have a solid enough hypothesis, it also works like this in human sciences.

Pooge 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Pretty sure that's wrong. The way it works is: we have this equation. It predicts where we expect such stuff to be in X seconds. In X seconds, we check it's indeed there. It's there: actual confirmation, not confirmation bias.

Exactly. My point is that since Einstein's theory, we know that Newton's Law is incomplete. Therefore proving that it was confirmation bias (i.e. that our equations just confirmed what we observed). Since we observed black holes, we knew that Newton's was incomplete as it couldn't fully explain their behaviors.

jraph 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> i.e. that our equations just confirmed what we observed

No, no, it's the opposite, and it's key! What we had been observing kept matching what the equations gave us "so far". Without cherry-picking, or refusing to see the cases where the model doesn't apply (consciously or not), which would have been confirmation bias.

We did, in fact, question the model as soon as we noticed it didn't apply.

Confirmation bias implies "cognitive blinkers", I don't think this happened in this Newton vs Einstein stuff.

But I agree the confirmation bias risk is not very far away. It's an issue in the general population, it's also likely a big issue in research.

Pooge 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Don't we start the equations after observing a phenomenon? It wouldn't make sense to try to explain something before observing it..

For example, after observing black holes we understood that Newton's was not enough to explain them. Thus we had to find another theory that explained our observations. Now with quantum computing we know that Einstein's theory is insufficient, too (not very knowledgeable on quantum physics myself, though)

caminante 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This was discussed on HN in 2023 . The whole "high context v. low context" model doesn't have scientific backing.[0]

> The model of high-context and low-context cultures offers a popular framework in intercultural communication studies but has been criticized as lacking empirical validation

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c...

mx7zysuj4xew 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I was going to make the same comment.

The correct term is high context vs low context culture, not "askers" and "guessers"

happytoexplain 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>By the way, that article doesn't cite any studies!

That's fine. I think we need to get away a little bit from the implication that any thought not connected to studies or statistics makes it borderline worthless. We need to lean a little bit more toward humanism ("we" as in ostensibly thoughtful people - the average person definitely needs to lean a little bit more toward studies/statistics).

dragonwriter 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Thought not well grounded in objective evidence has a place, both on matters that are not subject to empirical inquiry and in preliminary speculation about matters that are.

But it also runs the risk of building palaces of elaborate BS with no relation to reality and pure garbage filler content, like article presenting three different non-evidence-based ideas of how a dichotomy itself not grounded in evidence supposedly plays out in reality, with no effort to do look at any evidence or do any analysis as to whether any of them or the underlying dichotomy is connected to reality.

18 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
jraph 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Humanity / humanism and science aren't opposed.

Wrong social models can have bad human implications. It seems to me that being careful with these models and requiring rigor is the humanist thing to do.

Go ahead and present hypotheses, that can be very interesting, just don't present them as facts.

(Now maybe this asker-guesser thing is indeed studied, I don't know)

pseudalopex 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> Go ahead and present hypotheses, that can be very interesting, just don't present them as facts.

The article called it a provocative opinion described in a comment which became a meme.

jraph 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Indeed! I didn't remember this (yes, I had already read that article a long time ago, I only scanned it quickly this time).

At least the article is honest with its source.

Thanks for emphasizing this.

technothrasher 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> ("we" as in ostensibly thoughtful people - the average person definitely needs to lean a little bit more toward studies/statistics).

I'm not sure what you're getting at here by suggesting an elite class of people above the "average person" who do not require objective evidence. That's not really aligned with the core tenets of humanism.