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DetectDefect 4 hours ago

Missing from your calculus is the cost of creating, cleaning, maintaining and eventually replacing the hardware. None of that is "free" - it is merely externalized to a vulnerable population or to your future self.

microtonal 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Missing from your calculus are the healthcare costs of every person in a country breathing in fumes from electricity plants that burn coal and fumes from cars that burn gasoline.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266675922...

(And a gazillion other studies.)

boringg 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not supporting OP because I think hes backwards on the matter. However in Canada the electricity that is being burned isn't coal based - so you need to compare the actual grid not some hypothetical grid.

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The misplaced aggression and confusion is actually hilarious. We have reached a religion-level fervor by daring to question the economics of energy.

jnovek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You are being very aggressive and confrontational in your comments and people are responding in kind.

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really. People are angry because it is likely their first time hearing a contrarian narrative about solar energy, which likely challenges their own sunk-cost fallacy as solar panel owners.

amanaplanacanal 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Everything needs to be created, cleaned, maintained, and eventually replaced. You are acting like this is some sort of surprise.

standeven 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have roof top solar. I have never had to clean or maintain them in any way. Same with my friends who have roof top solar. The worst I’ve heard of is a microinverter failing, which was covered by warranty.

My gut response to your post was also aggression, not because you’re preaching uncomfortable truths, but because you’re repeating fossil fuel lobbyist talking points that I’m getting really tired of seeing all over social media.

boringg 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How long have you had your system - biggest risk point is year 10-12 and then 20-24 on inverter failure replacement which is fixable but just stretches out your payback period.

Im with you I hate the people who preach fossil fuel talking points. I also don't like the shady solar sales people who say solar is a no brainer - they are just pushing product to install on your roof. It is a pretty good product but not 100%.

Jtsummers 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They're trolling and people keep feeding them so they keep posting.

jf22 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd disagree the fervor is religious.

I think it's more frustration. Pointing out there is a maintenance cost to infrastructure is silly and doesn't add to the discussion.

We all know materials have to be shaped into machines to extract energy.

DetectDefect 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Simply ask to quantify the cost of shaping those materials into machinery, respective to other means of energy production. You will be met with hostility and scorn, accused of all sorts of improprieties, and ejected from the tribe, without ever receiving a data-supported answer.

jf22 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Because it's such a weasel "just asking questions" thing to do.

If you had a concern about the material costs of renewables you should know what they are and if you wanted to have a good faith discussion, you'd also be able to compare against legacy energy material costs.

adrianN an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You have received data from several people in this thread alone. Have you updated your opinion accordingly?

boringg 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The vagueness of your statement makes it impossible to discern any actual point outside of some broad anger/frustration packaged as humor.

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Canada's alternative energy source is very rarely coal (no where near me at least) but a lot of the grid capacity is coming from LNG outside of ON/QC. BC has a bunch of rivers and other water features but has been highly reluctant to build out hydro supply, as an example.

tialaramex 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Unlike the UK (which mothballed and eventually tore down its coal power stations) there is still a whole bunch of coal power online in Canada.

Lingan Generating Station would be a typical example. Big thermal power station, built to burn local coal, realistically the transition for them is to non-coal thermal power, burning LNG or Oil, or trees or whatever else can be set on fire. If they burned trash (which isn't really a practical conversion, but it's a hypothetical) we could argue that's renewable because it's not like there won't be trash, but otherwise this is just never going to be a renewable power source.

Canada is a huge place, so I don't doubt that none those coal stations are near you (unless, I suppose, you literally live next to Lingan or a similar plant but just aren't very observant) but most of us aren't self-sufficient and so we do need to pay attention to the consequences far from us.

llm_nerd 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>there is still a whole bunch of coal power online in Canada.

Ontario, Quebec, BC and Alberta, the four largest provinces by population and a heady percentage of the land area, have zero coal power generation facilities.

Ontario is mostly nuclear supported by hydro, with an absolute fallback of natural gas. Quebec is overwhelmingly hydro + wind. BC is mostly hydro. Alberta is mostly non-renewables like natural gas, but phased out its last coal plants.

If someone is in Canada, odds are extremely high that there is no coal plant anywhere in their jurisdiction. I also wouldn't say that there is a whole bunch of coal power online -- they're an extreme exception now.

tialaramex 2 hours ago | parent [-]

To me "a bunch" is when it'd be tedious to list them. For a few years the UK had few enough that you could list their names, then gradually four, three, two, one, none. Canada as a whole isn't in that place yet, though it doesn't have plans to build more of these plants and they will gradually reach end of life or transition to burning something else.

Coal isn't one of the "convenient" fossil fuels where you might choose to run electrical generation off this fuel rather than figure out how to deliver electricity to a remote site, coal is bulky and annoying. Amundsen Scott (the permanent base at the South Pole, IMO definition of remote) runs on JP-8 (ie basically kerosene, jet fuel), some places use gasoline or LNG. I don't expect hold outs in terms of practicality for coal, it's just about political will.

llm_nerd 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"For a few years the UK had few enough that you could list their names, then gradually four, three, two, one, none"

Sure, it's embarrassing that we still have any coal plants. But really, there are only eight small units remaining, located in the provinces of Nova Scotia (4), New Brunswick (1), and Saskatchewan (3). Every other jurisdiction abolished them.

Maybe small nuclear will be the solution for these holdouts. The fact that Alberta held onto coal for so long, and never built a nuclear plant, was outrageous.

microtonal 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's a fair point, though I think OP's recommendation to switch to solar is also to people outside Canada and most of the world is still burning fossil fuels to generate electricity.

boringg 3 hours ago | parent [-]

OP probably shouldn't have been replying to a Canada based question.

cmxch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Those costs can be safely deemed as 0, especially when you use Reed Elsevier.

vixen99 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Especially when they are offshored to China. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-023-01308-x

DetectDefect 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

microtonal 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One should definitely think about the children when choosing coal/gasoline vs. full electric. In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.

Fantastic virtue signaling. Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components though, since they're not "our" children.

triceratops 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components

You think elves drill oil and mine coal?

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
nehal3m 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Strange that in your comment history you're all about the democratization of technology, but you seem to be against solar of all things? Talk about decentralized power!

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The only thing strange is trolling comment history instead of rebutting the argument made on its own merit.

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Roof maintenance is a need in Canada regardless of the presence of solar. Solar roofs do demand additional maintenance but the benefits over relying on natural gas for power (which is the alternative in Canada outside ON/QC) is worth it.

I will stand by your statement from the philosophical point of view that nothing in life is free and everything has its trade offs - but this is a pretty clear positive. In addition, Canada has pretty decent workplace safety enforcement for the sort of workers that'd be doing the maintenance - it certainly isn't perfect but it is something that Canadians seem to find important.

adrianN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Panels have warranties of over twenty years now. They pay for themselves much earlier. You probably have to replace the inverter earlier, but that’s not a huge expense. I don’t know anybody who lives in a place where it rains who cleans the panels on their roof.

DetectDefect 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh, okay. Does a warranty cover sweeping snow off your panels and washing them many times throughout the years? I guess if one does not value time, then solar panels could be considered "free" - but this is a bizarre sacrifice.

darkwater 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lies. I'm using solar panels since 2022, still producing same peak energy and not cleaned them once. Some companies/electricians will try to sell you a cleaning and maintenance service for ~80-100EUR/year here but it's basically throwing money.

eitally 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I live in a fairly arid place (Bay Area) where it rains in winter but gets quite dry and dusty in the summer. I've had rooftop solar since 2016 and have noticed that generation decreases by as much as 8-10% when the panels are covered in summer dust.

nehal3m 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I wonder if it's worth setting up a sort of sprinkler system so you can easily clean it by opening a valve. Maybe add a pipe with some holes in it to the top of the panel, and some flexible hose to hook it up to the next one.

lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from?

I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year.

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I haven’t touched ours, they are clean and have been going fine with zero maintenance, though admittedly it’s only been a year.

> Where are you getting this maintenance schedule from?

The solar panel owner does not know the required maintenance they are now permanently responsible for. Ibid, your honor.

otterley 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You’re being extremely argumentative all over the comments to this story. Do you yourself own any solar panels? Your ceaseless naysaying constantly contradicts people’s lived experience (including mine) as owners.

Focus on solutions, not trying to be right. It’s aggravating.

rsynnott 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Your ceaseless naysaying constantly contradicts people’s lived experience (including mine) as owners.

Also, like, every study on this matter. The efficiency drop from being dirty for vaguely modern solar panels is _tiny_; below 5% and potentially below 1%.

lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are clean, I can see that and could wipe them if I needed to. The power output is the same.

Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from?

triceratops 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Where are you getting this maintenance schedule of yours from?

Their "Anti-Solar Talking Points" handbook from Big Oil.

rsynnott 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As above, cleaning solar panels is generally close to pointless.

csoups14 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I got solar panels installed two years ago and I've washed them once. I'm still getting great production. Are you trying to convince yourself that maintaining solar panels is difficult? Because it isn't.

DetectDefect 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I got solar panels installed two years ago

> I've washed them once.

> I'm still getting great production.

Thank you for reiterating my point.

boringg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't bother with the snow. Winter is low production energy due to the suns positioning - it melts in the spring and your back to producing. Most solar power is between march - september anyways.

rsynnott 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Washing solar panels _at all_ would be fairly unusual, and arguably pretty pointless, particularly given they're so cheap now; you're looking at, optimistically, a 5% efficiency improvement, but many studies say more like 1% in practice.

If you're in a place that gets significant snowfall such that they're often covered then production during winter is likely to be fairly marginal anyway, so may not be worth your while.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you think that level of maintenance is needed?

testing22321 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’ve had the system 18 months now. I’ve never once cleared snow or washed them. We get tons of snow.

Zero maintenance.

direwolf20 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Solar panels last practically forever. Despite the official lifetimes of 25-30 years, that was a conservative estimate for budgeting purposes, and they're still working after that time, with moderately reduced efficiency (around 70-80%).

micromacrofoot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've had my system for 10 years and maintenance has literally been 0. Rain and snow clean the panels. Panels themselves warrantied for 30 years but will likely last longer.

Roof-based panels also take on some roof wear, increasing longevity of roofing as well.

account42 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah of course solar is cheap if you get everyone else to pay for it.