| ▲ | mekdoonggi 4 hours ago |
| Curious if this will eventually change China's calculus with regards to Russia. If Europe is a big customer for Chinese exports, and Russia is antagonizing, it seems like China would have an incentive to put pressure on Russia. It already seems like Russia is positioned to be completely subservient to China in the future. |
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| ▲ | munk-a 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| China is happy as a clam that Russia is self-isolating and destroying their internal economy. The natural resources of Russia are vast and if China is the only one exploiting them and funneling them into the Chinese economy it'd be an excellent outcome. I don't think China is opposed to strong economies as trade partners but dependent economies are much easier to control and monopolize. |
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| ▲ | pydry 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Russia is only isolated from the west (e.g. exports to India are booming) and its internal economy is growing faster than Europe's. Russia holds leverage over China because China is incredibly resource dependent and very susceptible to the threat of blockade through the first island chain by the US. Only Russia can bypass such a blockade with fertilizer, grain, oil and gas. The US is driving these countries into each other's arms. | | |
| ▲ | qaq 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Russia holds leverage over China is probably the funniest statement I've read on HN in a long time ... |
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| ▲ | raincole 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If Europe were a big customer for Russia energy, it seems like Russia would have an incentive to not antagonize it. Oh, see how well it went. |
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| ▲ | microtonal 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It also works the other way around and I am pretty sure that was what Russia was betting on - with Europe's dependence on Russian energy, Europe would not react strongly to Russia's invasion. That did not go as expected for Russia either. | |
| ▲ | arrrg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It worked until it didn’t. That’s how it goes. Peace is always hard work and irrational actors (in terms of: well being of people, not necessarily aspirations of empire) can muck everything up. Economical co-dependency is a good tool for increasing the price of going to war and making it irrational. It’s also not a zero sum game and tends to profit both sides. However, it can suck if you do it with non-democratic regimes and autocratic rulers who trample human rights. So between France, Germany, Poland and all the other EU members it‘s keeping the continent at peace and generally does not suck because it‘s between broadly democratic nations. It also benefits each one massively and makes things possible like a common electric grid that increases reliability in general. So nearly all upside. I do think economic cooperation with the Soviet Union and later Russia - much, much more limited than between EU members - was helpful in cooling tensions and making the world a bit safer, sure, but Russia has clearly behaved in a way that makes that no longer a good idea. | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China is usually seen (I think broadly correctly) as more of a rational actor than Russia. Russia is much more run for the benefit of a weird dictator than run as a country. | |
| ▲ | jhrmnn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Europe was a bit customer for Russia energy, and Russia invaded an EU neighbor nonetheless. After which it stopped being the customer. So it seems like that incentive didn't really work. | | |
| ▲ | mekdoonggi 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think that was raincole's point. I guess we can't account for Russia or the US making decisions that are completely counter to the benefit of their people. | |
| ▲ | mrweasel 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Had Russia indeed invaded Ukraine in three days, I don't think the EU today would have been any less dependent on Russians energy than in 2022. |
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| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Russia did have a big incentive to not antagonize Europe. But sadly they have a political system that doesn't reflect what is best for the ordinary person. So those incentives can be ignored by those making the decisions. See also, Trump invading Greenland. |
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| ▲ | mschuster91 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > If Europe is a big customer for Chinese exports, and Russia is antagonizing, it seems like China would have an incentive to put pressure on Russia. China wants Russia to at least keep the Ukraine war going, if not eventually win the darn thing. Russia winning (or getting away with an armistice that lets them keep Crimea and Donbas) means a precedence China has for a land-grab of its own - obviously Taiwan, but other countries in its "sphere of influence" have seen hostilities for years, from land grabs [1] to overfishing [2], not to mention the border dispute with India. And as long as we are distracted with Israel/Palestine or Ukraine/Russia, China has free rein to do whatever they want. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_So... [2] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/energy-world/chinas-overfi... |
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| ▲ | WarmWash 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Donbas is mostly wheat fields, Taiwan is mostly SOTA semiconductor fabs that currently are the sole pillar holding up the AI (and compute in general) zeitgeist. The global response would not be the same, even remotely. And what would China get from it? A tiny island of rubble and an ego boost, while losing enormous global favor? The cost of that island may well be a few trillion for China, just so they can say they defeated the nationalists. | | |
| ▲ | mekdoonggi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The semiconductors are propping up the AI zietgeist in the US, but is that true globally? Why would Canada/Brazil/Europe care about Taiwan? China will still sell them the chips. The only one who would really care is the US. So by taking Taiwan, China blows up the US stock market and takes control of the chips. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Every country on Earth benefits from the chips that come from Taiwan, and not just the governments, the people using pretty much anything that does computation. That includes China. | | |
| ▲ | mekdoonggi 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes I am aware. Which means that if China takes over political control of Taiwan and says, "We will still sell chips just like normal to everyone except the US". Would the rest of the world decide to go to war with China for the political freedom of Taiwan? | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Taiwan will burn (explosive demolition) the fabs before China gets them. This is baked into their defense plan and made known to China. |
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| ▲ | throwaway_45 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China is playing the long game. They can go spend a trillion bucks and hire/steal the tech and they could destroy Taiwan's competitive advantage, and they could just economically crush them. | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Donbas is mostly wheat fields ... which nevertheless are very important worldwide. Early in the war, there was a lot of effort to make sure grain exports could run smoothly because otherwise Africa would have been in serious trouble. > The global response would not be the same, even remotely. We're already at a stage where Trump doesn't give a single fuck about NATO and some of his advisors would rather have it disbanded yesterday in favor of isolationism, or even outright march into territory to annex it. I have absolutely zero faith that Trump would intervene on Taiwan's favor - an intervention does not fit into Trump's and especially Miller's world view wherein the world is to be divided into areas of influence for the super powers to act with impunity. > And what would China get from it? A tiny island of rubble and an ego boost, while losing enormous global favor? Never underestimate nationalist idiocy. Putin invaded Ukraine because of his dream to restore "Great Russia", it is entirely possible that the CCP wants the same for the ego of their leadership to be the ones "bringing the lost areas home". They already did so with Hongkong, and not reacting to China violating the treaty with the UK was the biggest mistake the Western nations have ever done. |
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| ▲ | mekdoonggi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That makes sense, but if that's the case, why aren't they invading Taiwan now? Wouldn't now be the perfect time? | | |
| ▲ | energy123 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The consensus among Western defense and foreign policy types is that China will most likely invade Taiwan in 2027, relative to any other single year, conditional on them doing it at all. | |
| ▲ | mano78 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep, a time when anyone can say to an ally "Greenland must be mine" and more or less get away with it... | |
| ▲ | saubeidl 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because that would be way more destabilizing globally before the precedent is set and China doesn't want instability. Which is also, coincidentally why they seem like a better trade partner to me as European at this point. |
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| ▲ | mytailorisrich 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think that mainland China needs any sort of precedent over Taiwan should they decide on military action. The situation is completely different from Ukraine. The South China Sea is also on long-running dispute that predates the PRC (and dates from a time where all the neighbouring countries were Western colonies...) and what has been happening is more a policy of "fait accompli" by occupying unoccupied disputed islands first rather than an "invasion". I don't know what is the thinking on Ukraine now in Beijing, but they were massively pissed off when Russia invaded because it has caused a lot of disruption to belt and road and to East-West relations in general. |
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