Remix.run Logo
mixedbit 7 hours ago

Long time ago Sourceforge and then GitHub promoted into the current default the model of open source distribution which is not sustainable and I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind. Open source licenses are about freedom of using and modifying software. The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user to better fit the user's needs. To create Free software, you ship sources together with your binaries and one of the OSI-approved licenses, that is all. The currently default model of having an open issue tracker, accepting third party pull requests, doing code reviews, providing support by email or chat, timely security patches etc, has nothing to do with open source and is not sustainable. This is OK if it is done for a hobby project as long as the author is having fun doing this work, but as soon as the software is used for commercial, production critical systems, the default expectation that authors will be promptly responding to new GitHub issues, bug reports and provide patches for free is insane. This is software support, it is a job, it should be paid.

nmz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've often dreamed of a system where normal users, give money as a promotion for a certain issue to be fixed or even created, if the user wants feature X then he should be able to give an incentive towards that feature to be added into the software that they use, developers do bounties instead, the user doesn't have to give much only a dollar, but if many users want feature X, then the money/donations pool creating higher incentives until the task itself matches the level of work to be performed to achieve it until merged.

The project managers also get a cut of all merges, testers also must approve of the merge and that feature X is the one they want. So the project manager gets to work and improve/reject features, the user gets control over the features of the project they want and developers get to pick specific features they would like to work on (sort of). everybody gets what they want (sort of). All via attaching $ to the issues of the software, not the people.

1-more an hour ago | parent | next [-]

All we need to do is create Kalshi contracts! Users bet that a fix won't be created for Issue 123 by date XYZ, developers take the other side of the contract and then do the best kind of insider trading: changing the facts on the ground. We did it!

munk-a 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

And a few weeks into that arbitrage traders will catch wind and start betting on the more likely bug closures and then the devs that fix the bug will end up owing money!

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Those normal users are better off instead purchasing software. Then they will be listened to by developers if they report a bug or suggest a feature. Because they represent an incredibly valuable user segment: paying customers.

nmz an hour ago | parent [-]

One of the most used paid and proprietary software is windows, and its users do not matter at all to how it implements its features.

chowells an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Users matter a ton to windows. Specifically, the users with a hundred thousand or more licenses. Their unhappiness threatens Windows' profits in a meaningful way. Why do you think all the new secure boot and TPM features were added to Windows 11? All that work wasn't free to implement. But big businesses really want that degree of secure fleet management, and they're the customers who matter.

So going back to the GP - pay for software where you're in the largest organized user class. That's how you get power. Paying alone doesn't suffice.

munk-a a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

I genuinely doubt the users with a hundred thousand or more licenses asked for Copilot 365 Suite.

Rooster61 20 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I think it's clear the source comment was referencing end users. It's patently obvious at this point that a large number of people who directly use Windows are frustrated with it, and perceive it to be degrading rather than improving over time.

llbbdd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Most users of Windows get it for somewhere between free and $150, the fact that there is still a home edition of Windows is practically a loss leader to keep the business side ingrained. Enterprise licensees are the ones with the money and Microsoft will dedicate full-time engineers to their features if they can afford it.

klez 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind.

Free Software sure, that wasn't the point.

Open Source, that was exactly the point. Eric S Raymond, one of the original promoters of the concept of Open Source coined Linus' Law:

    Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow
Which definitely points in the direction of receiving bug reports and patches from users of the application. He was also a proponent of the Bazaar model, where software is developed in public, as opposed to the Cathedral model where software is only released in milestones (he used GCC and Emacs as examples, which reinforces the part of your statement about the Free Software movement in particular).
pixl97 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

ESR is also from a time where spamming countless reports/junk code wasn't really a concept.

They did have things like trolls and zealots that thought "Their one idea" was a gift from god and the maintainers were idiots for not adding it to the application. And eventually those people may have been banned from mailing lists. But in general the people posting code were typically well known and had some interest in fixing the application for some useful purpose.

Simply put, no idealism stands the test of time without change. Nature shows us that everything must evolve or it goes extinct. How 'free software' evolves is now up for debate.

ambicapter 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Linus’ Law doesn’t really imply anything about maintainers behavior though. As an example, you can imagine maintainers that never update their repos. Every bug fix is a forking of the repo, and people only use the repo with the latest commits. Eventually, the bug count goes down as well!

mixmastamyk 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t agree with this newer idea that has arisen that FOSS authors are “victims.”

It’s up to you to set boundaries (or prices) and communicate them, like an adult. If one is still rude and entitled then ban them from the repo, or let people fork, but not before looking in the mirror first and reflecting at your own behavior.

(I’m trying to imagine folks painting xfree86 maintainers as victims back in the day when xorg forked them for intransigence. The point is disagreements happen, deal with them.)

otikik 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think "we will ban and publicly shame you if you waste our time" is a very clear and adult boundary.

mixmastamyk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It could be a childish overreaction. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46718635

As always it depends on the circumstances, but should default to quietly closing with WONTFIX. Others have said Daniel is typically helpful and respectful so there we go.

wtallis 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

What you linked to is not really evidence, just an unsubstantiated allegation. Over the top public shaming is something that should be pretty easy to provide direct evidence of. When Linus Torvalds does it, it gets repeatedly brought up in forums like this for many years.

zahlman 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The point is to deter further contributions of the same form, including from other users.

samus 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is not the first time the curl project complains about bogus and excessive bug reports.

ghostly_s 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Afaict github allows you to disable 'Issues' per repo, yet few do. I presume that means they are okay engaging with issues on some level, but I find it odd almost none post a policy/expectations around them.

zahlman 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> I’m trying to imagine folks painting xfree86 maintainers as victims back in the day when xorg forked them for intransigence. The point is disagreements happen, deal with them.

... Did they try anything as petty as the xorg maintainers are nowadays?

spicyusername 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

    has nothing to do with open source

    long time ago
Sourceforge is almost 30 years old. GitHub almost 20.

How long does something have to be done a certain way for it to be "to do with"?

I would say we're now two generations deep of software engineers who came up with open source software commonly being mediated through public issue trackers.

That isn't to say it needs to stay that way, just that I think a lot of people do in fact associate public project tracking with open source software.

mnw21cam 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Thanks for making me feel old.

wrs 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'll just say that I once installed Emacs from a 9-track magtape that someone mailed to me.

reneberlin 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I fully agree. The psychological burden is also high, what makes the maintainer feel miserable over time.

NegativeK 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> has nothing to do with open source

I partially disagree. It does have to do with open source: Github (et al) are about creating a community around an open source project. It's hard to get adoption without a community; it gives you valid bug reports, use cases you didn't think of, and patches.

You can, if you want, turn off PRs, issues, and literally any feedback from the outside world. But most people don't want that.

> and is not sustainable

I 100% agree. People (including people at for profit companies) are taking advantage of the communities that open source maintainers are trying to build and manipulating guilt and a sense of duty to get their way.

The most insidious burnout I see is in disorganized volunteer communities. A volunteer is praised for jumping in with both feet, pushes themselves really hard, is rewarded vocally and often and with more authority, and is often the one applying the most pressure to themselves. There's no supervisor to tell them to pace themselves. And when their view switches from idealistic to realistic and then falls into pessimistic, they view the environment through a toxic lens.

Then they vanish.

embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You can, if you want, turn off PRs, issues, and literally any feedback from the outside world. But most people don't want that.

Literally you cannot, you can turn off "Issues", but you cannot turn of pull requests, Microsoft/GitHub forces you to leave that open for others to submit PRs to your repositories no matter what you want.

stryan 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You can, if you want, turn off PRs, issues, and literally any feedback from the outside world. But most people don't want that.

Just a note, you actually can't turn off PR's on Github repos. At least not permanently.

pixl97 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yea, and before we got issue trackers quite commonly issues and code chunks were shared via email lists that quite commonly had online archives. Think things kind of like the LKML.

snowmobile 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This is software support, it is a job, it should be paid.

What's stopping any open source maintainer from charging for their work?

boca_honey an hour ago | parent [-]

Irrelevance. The moment you paywall a project, it’s a death sentence. Unless you have a unique and highly sought-after product (top 1%), someone else will just make a free alternative.

direwolf20 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Some projects were successful at charging for custom work and special support — sqlite for instance.

boca_honey 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Exactly, that's an example of a top 1% project. It even has a detailed Wikipedia article in 35 languages. That model won't fly with small to medium-sized, regular projects.

vladms 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the default expectation that authors will be promptly responding to new GitHub issues, bug reports and provide patches for free is insane.

I think there are many insane expectations out there, open source or not, so I don't personally see it that linked with the idea/ideal of open source.

> This is software support, it is a job, it should be paid.

Anything can be paid, nobody says otherwise. Some people prefer nobody pays for their source code (open source). Other people do support for free. And so on.

> The currently default model of having ... has nothing to do with open source and is not sustainable.

There were always arguments why open source will not be sustainable, many having some truth in them. But the current issue can be probably solved with some push-back on the speed of things or how attribution works. Something similar used to happen on some forums: you can't post a new thread for one month if you did not reply at least once without getting down-voted. For the current problem : if contributions are anonymous for the first 3 years of you contributing (if you are not banned) and your name becomes public only after, then all this "noise" for "advertisement" will die. Doubt this will discourage any well intentioned contributor.

1313ed01 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I thought about this a lot recently and decided that the small, mostly complete, project I work on now, if I release it (I probably will), I will just post an archive somewhere with the source code, like in old days.

toomuchtodo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What about posting it read only on Github so folks can download and fork it but not bother you with inbound requests (discussions, PR, issues)?

1313ed01 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I kind of do that already with my most recent project, developing it in my local fossil repo and each release I have a script that copies it to a local git-repo, tags it, and pushes it to GitHub. So the GitHub history just has a series of release commits.

But the project is still open for issues and PRs. Can only be disabled on paid accounts, right? Never had anyone try yet. I had feedback through other channels, just not on GitHub, so maybe explicitly keeping all development offline has had the intended effect? I get a trickle of issues and PRs for my other repos where development is out in the open with every commit pushed to GitHub.

But if it was discovered by drive-by LLM contributors I would still have annoying extra work, for no obvious benefit compared to just sharing archives. I do not think anyone (out of at least dozens) discovering any of my repos do that on GitHub, but from seeing my posts elsewhere.

It's not like no one can fork a source code archive, even if it is like 3-4 git-commands to run instead of just a button to click.

TomasBM 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've also noticed this expectation. Where does it come from?

FOSS means that the code to be free and open-source, not the schedule or the direction of its developer(s).

embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I dunno, I think at one point there was a similar merge as to what happened with "git and "github" where "open source the licensing" somehow became the same as "open source the collaborative and open software development process", and nowadays people get kind of confused when you say you're doing open source yet you don't accept pull/merge requests.

mixmastamyk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I propose the FOOSSNO license, fuck off its open source, no obligation, for communication purposes. ;-)

embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe WTFPL can send the message across? Could maybe make a V3 and add as a second point to it: "1. And don't tell me/ask me about it, just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO"

madeofpalk 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I doubt it is something that the founding fathers of Free Software/Open Source had in mind

Who cares? That was 30 years ago. How different were computers, programming, and the world back then?

Things change over time. The world is not immutable.

nullc 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The original model works, the new model significantly fails. LLMs have taken many cases that were on the border over the line into failure, by changing the resource management tradeoffs. (Both by giving valuable contributors a cheap way to get 'extra eyes' on their own terms, and by empowering a new generation of trisectors and trolls to flood out even the most efficient public submission pipelines).

jen20 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> To create Free software, you ship sources together with your binaries and one of the OSI-approved licenses, that is all.

Untrue. Shopping source with _some_ OSI-approved licenses makes the work Free software. Shipping it with others merely makes it open source software.

BugsJustFindMe 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> This is software support, it is a job, it should be paid.

It is paid, even if not in money. It seems like maybe you lack awareness of the other forms of capital and reward that exist, because your framing implicitly insists that financial capital is the only form of capital and that monetary reward is the only form of reward. But there are also a bunch of other forms of capital, like social, cultural, symbolic, etc. which you have missed, and there are non-capital (non-convertible) forms of reward, like feeling good about something. It's the entire reason why permissive licenses still preserve attribution.

To wit, people maintain things literally all the time either purely for prestige, or because being a contributing member of a community, even a small one, makes them feel good, or because knowing that maintaining things leads others to also maintain things. There are both intrinsic and extrinsic non-monetary gains here.

Stallman makes the same critical error in his foundational writings, so at least you're not alone in this.

(A foundational read on the subject of the different forms of capital is Pierre Bourdieu's The Forms of Capital: https://www.scribd.com/document/859144970/P-Bourdieu-the-For...)

(See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivation#Intrinsic_and_extri...)

nlawalker 4 hours ago | parent [-]

>people maintain things literally all the time either purely for prestige, or because being a contributing member of a community, even a small one, makes them feel good, or because knowing that maintaining things leads others to also maintain things.

True, but the expectation means that taking on maintenance involves taking on and leveraging a large amount of reputational debt in a very risky way.

If you release something to the world and place yourself in a high-visibility maintainer position, burn out on it and then decide to drop it, it's very hard to ensure that your legacy and reputation in perpetuity will be "released something great and did the world a solid by maintaining it for a while" as opposed to "person who overcommits, bails, and leaves the world in a jam".

BugsJustFindMe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It is incontrovertible that the entirety of the open source / free software world exists, in a very fundamental way, because people experience personal reward by doing work that they give away for zero dollars.

The existence of risk does not eliminate the existence of reward. It's called "expected value", and it's non-zero, and it's for the person to manage for themself like everything else in life. Working for equity also involves risk, and nobody says that it's not compensation.

> If you release something to the world and place yourself in a high-visibility maintainer position, burn out on it and then decide to drop it, it's very hard to ensure that your legacy and reputation in perpetuity will be "released something great and did the world a solid by maintaining it for a while" as opposed to "person who overcommits, bails, and leaves the world in a jam".

This is like saying you suffer reputational damage by retiring from a career. The claim is clearly absurd. It's not hard to step down from leading a project in a way that preserves reputation in the same way that it's not hard to leave a company without burning bridges. Some people are bad at being people and fail at both.

nlawalker an hour ago | parent [-]

My point is that the OP doesn't >lack awareness of other forms of capital, they're asserting that those aren't sufficient on their own, and that one of the reasons for that is the risk that stems from stepping down being something that you can fail at in the first place, with the consequences of cementing a reputation of "being bad at being a person" regardless of anything that's happened to that point. You don't have the opportunity of accumulating reputation without having that risk at the end, unlike a career, where you have the opportunity of taking a job that pays a regular paycheck regardless of whether you leave at the drop of a hat and burn all your bridges by doing so.

BugsJustFindMe an hour ago | parent [-]

> My point is that the OP doesn't >lack awareness of other forms of capital, they're asserting that those aren't sufficient on their own

OP said "it should be paid" because "it is a job", and so the rejection of that claim is two-fold: 1) Uncertainty in the expected value of payment does not change the fact that it's payment, 2) Payment in units other than dollars is still payment. If I get paid in bitcoins, the bitcoin market could completely collapse before I cash out. It's not different than that.

OP's specific written framing, that because it's a job it needs to be paid, which is only additive commentary if OP believes that it isn't being paid, disagrees with your prediction about what OP really secretly bases their statement on.

We can look further back in OP's comment as well:

> The movement grew out of frustration that commercial software cannot be freely improved and fixed by the user

This is only fractionally true, and it is only true in an unpaid way for a desire to consume free software. It is not true in an unpaid way for the desires to produce or maintain free software. Those are done because the producers and maintainers experience some kind of reward from doing so.

Arainach 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Payment in units other than dollars is still payment. If I get paid in bitcoins, the bitcoin market could completely collapse before I cash out. It's not different than that.

I can't pay my rent or my server bills in "prestige". Entirely different.