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alistairSH 4 hours ago

Even better, in the US, the police have zero obligation to actually protect anybody from crime (unless that person is in government custody). The courts have upheld this time and again.

Aunche 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the police have zero obligation to actually protect anybody from crime

This gets misrepresented on the Internet all the time. What this really means is that you can't sue the city for incompetent policemen, which is the case in basically every country. That only punishes the taxpayers after all. What is different about other countries is that they are much better at firing incompetent police.

eftychis an hour ago | parent | next [-]

In some (EU) countries, as a public officer/agent you can actually get prosecuted (civil or criminal proceedings per case), in cases of blatant or willful incompetence. (Think of the levels of gross wanton disregard/negligence.) (There is also the legal vehicle of insubordination.)

For instance, in Greece https://www.lawspot.gr/nomothesia/pk/arthro-259-poinikos-kod... (N.B. the bar of wilfulness in this section in the Greek criminal code is much lower than the corresponding notion of wilfulness in the U.S.)

The bar is high, of course, and yet people have historically managed to get prosecuted, lose their jobs, and go to prison.

I think the problem in the U.S. is, ironically, the power of police unions in a fragmented police force (city, territory, county, etc.) ecosystem, coupled with the lack of unified, express state and federal statutes to enforce a standard of care and competence.

Add to that that peace officer-specific state statutes (e.g., describing manslaughter while on duty) are written in such a way that, as a matter of law, it becomes a herculean task to tick all the boxes to successfully preserve a conviction on appeal. It is truly troubling. (I am hopeful, as this can be solved by the U.S. legislature, which I think we have a lot of reasons to demand to be done.)

themafia an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The case in NY was police setup a sting on the subway to catch a serial stabber. Instead of stopping him they stood by and watched him attack several innocent bystanders.

They were sued for incompetence. For the failed sting.

The two police officers who stood and watched him get attacked were ruled to be immune because they had no duty to protect him.

Point being, if police see you getting attacked, they have no duty to /stop/ that from happening. Their only duty is to take a report once they feel safe enough to approach.

If you see two police on the corner and think "this is a safe area" you'd completely be operating on faith in their character.

alistairSH 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

And then chain that with the ridiculous "clearly established" bar for qualified immunity and it's nigh on impossible to hold police in the US accountable for what most citizens would recognize as clear malfeasance.

bell-cot 13 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

If you see two police on the corner and think...

Not to speak highly of the NYPD - but it is the character of most violent criminals to refrain from attacking you when police officers are standing close at hand.

anigbrowl 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

That only punishes the taxpayers after all.

I am sick to the back teeth of this narrative that all grievances can be resolved into currency and that paying this hurts taxpayers. We can jail negligent or reckless public officials, the financial costs of investigating and compensating people are an economic incentive to promulgate better standards in the first place.

JasonADrury 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Per the DOJ, there's also this:

>An officer who purposefully allows a fellow officer to violate a victim's Constitutional rights may be prosecuted for failure to intervene to stop the Constitutional violation.

>To prosecute such an officer, the government must show that the defendant officer was aware of the Constitutional violation, had an opportunity to intervene, and chose not to do so.

jshier an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Unfortunately the courts have repeated ruled that "aware of the Constitutional violation" means knowing that the exact action being observed had previously been ruled a violation of Constitutional rights. It's essentially impossible to prove, which is one of the reasons we don't see that offense prosecuted.

JasonADrury an hour ago | parent [-]

In the Chauvin case all three of the bystanders were sent to prison by federal courts specifically for civil rights violations stemming from their failure to intervene as Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd in front of them.

jshier 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

Exception that proves that rule. It took national protests over months, during COVID, to drive that case through to conviction.

direwolf20 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Who represents the government in these cases?

cogman10 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Generally speaking, the way it's supposed to work is the local prosecutors will start the process. That, unfortunately, isn't something they like to do because they have to work with police departments. If they fail to do their job, theoretically the next step is that the FBI gets involved. But, doesn't seem like today's FBI is doing much beyond prosecuting Trump's political enemies.

This is the reason why I've long believed we need a check both federal and local to police that is completely divorced from regular prosecution. We need lawyers/investigators whose sole purpose is investigating and prosecuting police at pretty much all levels of the government. The federal government theoretically has that with the office of inspectors general.

mothballed 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The government prosecutes the government and is judged by the government and a jury screened under voir dire by two government lawyers?

Kind of like when a robber comes to your house, you have him arrested, and when you go to court you look up and he is the one swinging the gavel.

Of course, interesting the cop has to know there is a constitution violation. Somehow ignorance of the law is always an excuse for the cops but the citizenry must know all 190,000 pages of federal regulations and 300,000+ laws and by god if they forgot one they are fucked.

mothballed 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the fact they do have an obligation to stop anyone from protecting other people from crime (see Uvalde, where orders from above were to block parents from saving their children).

NoMoreNicksLeft 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> (unless that person is in government custody)

Someone please correct me, but do they ever much bother to protect those in custody?

foxyv 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Their main method of "Protecting" people in custody has been deemed a form of torture called Solitary Confinement.

JasonADrury 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They certainly seem to be willing to spend a lot to keep Luigi Mangione safe.

alistairSH 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's tangential... they can be held liable if they fail to protect somebody that is in custody. They generally cannot be held liable for failure to protect a member of the public.

freedomben 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Generally speaking, yes. I have worked with the corrections side of law enforcement in the US and don't internationally for quite a few years at this point. The correction side is a different beast than the police side in many ways, so I definitely want to meet clear that my personal experience is limited in scope to that. However, generally speaking I have seen that the majority of corrections staff take protection very seriously. There are individual officers that can be scum, and ideally they should be bounced out of there. But realistically, it's a human problem. I've known plenty of software engineers that were cavalier with people's personal information in ways I think can be just as damaging. On the whole though, the majority of software engineers I know take protecting that information quite seriously.