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What Is a PC Compatible?(codon.org.uk)
57 points by edward 6 days ago | 16 comments
BirAdam 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The truth is that there’s no way we can technically describe a PC Compatible now - or, honestly, ever. If you sent a modern PC back to 1981 the media would be amazed and also point out that it didn’t run Flight Simulator.

For historical context, a PC compatible is a machine that can run a DOS that is compatible with PC-DOS and that can run applications for the IBM PC running PC DOS. This was vital to the success and failure of many companies and thus we can absolutely say what a PC compatible was. The PC-compatible standard was largely replaced by WinTel compatible in the late 1990s. Modern machines can still run Win32 and applications written for Win32, and thus are WinTel compatible.

Of course, being WinTel compatible matters less than ever before. Much of the software people care about is now either browser-based or open source and compiled for multiple targets. We also now have dynamic recompilers that are quite good, and therefore even being compiled for the target is... well, not as important.

We need some new kind of standard that identifies general purpose, superscalar CPU with large cache and SIMD, a PCIe controller with many lanes, a memory controller for DDR4/5 paired with UEFI and either a modern GPU or a decent NPU (or both). Currently, this describes a few RISC-V machines, many ARM machines, and most AMD64 machines after about 2018. Maybe this is something like 5th Generation Industry Standard Architecture or 5SA? Whatever the industry does or doesn't call it, it's certainly not PC compatible in any sense.

trollbridge an hour ago | parent | next [-]

A modern PC can most certainly run Flight Simulator. Most PCs still have an EFI that provides a CSM. And most GPUs default to running a program that provides VGA (and thus CGA) compatibility.

What's even more surprising is that it functions properly, other than a timing issue with the World War I Ace mode.

If you want to run FS 2.11 or earlier, you will need to get a cracked copy, since its copy protection requires using a diskette version. But "PC compatible" has never required diskette drives - the original IBM PC included an edition with no diskette drives at all.

Someone an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> For historical context, a PC compatible is a machine that can run a DOS that is compatible with PC-DOS and that can run applications for the IBM PC running PC DOS.

Historically, a lot more was required in practice. For example, programs that use the BIOS for screen I/O are slow, so most programs wrote directly to video memory. Because of that, video memory had to be laid out identically and had to be located at the same address.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible#Non-compatib... for other examples.

giancarlostoro 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If that's the case... You could send any machine with FreeDOS installed and really blow their mind, or at least I would think so? I'm not sure how well maintained FreeDOS is for more modern hardware. I assume it would still install and run.

the__alchemist 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a fantastic explanation! I've been thinking about software/binary compatibility lately. I think even before crossing the CPU arch barrier you mention, we could cross the OS barrier. Windows apps are generally mutually compatible. Within Linux is dicier. I've found some rules of thumb (compile on the oldest version you wish to support), with some cross-distro compat.

Some things like MUSL and manylinux are nice! I would love to see all OS barriers to compatibility knocked down. Or at least be able to make a single "Linux" binary. The CPU type barrier is obviously larger, but I think the OS one shouldn't exist.

Maybe we would need standard abstractions for things the OS provides like file system, date/time, allocator, threads, networking. The things programming languages abstract over in their std libs, but at an OS/compile level.

ElectricalUnion an hour ago | parent [-]

jart Cosmopolitan. It combines a polyglot format (the αcτµαlly pδrταblε εxεcµταblε is simultaneously a Windows Portable Executable and a Thompson Shell script) and a polymorphic libc that works in all major OSes under both amd64 and arm64.

It's a single binary.

trollbridge an hour ago | parent [-]

And produces binaries that are smaller than a typical single-OS build.

Manuel_TPC 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fantastic article! You nailed the core irony perfectly: the term "PC Compatible" was almost a misnomer from day one, because even in the heyday of cloning, a "compatible" machine could choke on software that poked the hardware directly or relied on the quirks of IBM's specific BIOS. True compatibility was always a spectrum, not a binary state.

It’s a great example of a technological anachronism—a term that outlives its original meaning. We have plenty of those, for example, we still "dial" a phone number on a keypad, "hang up" a call without a physical receiver to hang, and save a file to a "desktop" that’s often just a digital metaphor.

So really, "PC Compatible" fits right in: a useful, socially-agreed-upon label that’s more about practical expectation than technical purity. Thanks for the insightful read—it definitely brought a smile to my face. Cheers

amiga386 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apparently this is Matthew Garrett's blog. It contains one article.

Looking at his more common blog, https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/ ... it says he's moved to this one.

Any particular reason he's no longer using Dreamwidth?

jrmg 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

What does this mean?

Most Planets should be updated already (I've an MR open for Planet Gnome)

petcat an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Just glancing around, dreamwidth is hosted on AWS, and this blog looks like it's hosted on mythic-beasts.com which is a uk-based hosting provider. No idea if that's it.

liotier an hour ago | parent [-]

It is mjg59 - he posted it on January 4th. https://bsky.app/profile/mjg59.eicar-test-file.zip/post/3mbm...

analog31 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>>> When BIOS interfaces weren’t sufficient they hit the hardware directly - and even if they weren’t doing that, they’d end up depending on behavioural quirks of IBM’s BIOS implementation.

This happened with the Apple II as well, and made it impossible for Apple to update their system. Even minor changes, from the Apple II to the IIe and IIc, broke some apps. And if an app broke, it was presumed to be the hardware maker's fault.

There was a book entitled "what's where in the Apple II" that documented all known variable locations and entry points in the Apple ROM and DOS. For instance people would just branch directly into weird places in the ROM, or poke directly into memory.

dfajgljsldkjag an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The section about the transition from BIOS to UEFI really sums up why hardware support is such a nightmare to maintain. I remember dealing with those old IRQ conflicts back in the day, and I certainly do not miss it. It is accurate to say that a PC is just whatever we agree it is because the technology has drifted so far from the original design.

bitwize 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even back in the day, computers which ran the PC versions of Lotus 1-2-3 and Microsoft Flight Simulator without issue were judged "100% PC compatible".

These days, a PC is pretty much defined as a computer that runs Windows.

DDayMace 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Great article