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Fiveplus 8 hours ago

That is the traditional textbook yield curve logic, if I'm not wrong? Smaller area = higher probability of a surviving die on a dirty wafer. But I wonder if the sheer margin on AI silicon basically breaks that rule? If Nvidia can sell a reticle-sized package for 25k-30k USD, they might be perfectly happy paying for a wafer that only yields 30-40% good dies.

Apple OTOH operates at consumer electronics price points. They need mature yields (>90%) to make the unit economics of an iPhone work. There's also the binning factor I am curious about. Nvidia can disable 10% of the cores on a defective GPU and sell it as a lower SKU. Does Apple have that same flexibility with a mobile SoC where the thermal or power envelope is so tightly coupled to the battery size?

genocidicbunny 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am curious about the binning factor too since in the past, AMD and Intel have both made use of defect binning to still sell usable chips by disabling cores. Perhaps Apple is able to do the same with their SoCs? It's not likely to be as granular as Nvidia who can disable much smaller areas of the silicon for each of their cores. On the other hand, the specifics of the silicon and the layout of the individual cores, not to mention the spread of defects over the die might mitigate that advantage.

ricw 7 hours ago | parent [-]

They do bin their chips. Across the range (A- and M-series) they have the same chip with fewer / disabled cpu and gpu cores. You pray a premium for ones with more cores. Unsure about the chip frequencies - Apple doesn’t disclose those openly from what I know.

nebula8804 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I thought they binned CPUs for things like AppleTV and lower cost iPads?

jsheard 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, most of their chips have two or more bins with different core configs, and the lower bins probably use salvaged dies.

For example the regular M4 can have 4 P-cores / 6 E-cores / 10 GPU cores, or 3/6/10 cores, or 4/4/8 cores, depending on the device.

They even do it on the smaller A-series chips - the A15 could be 2/4/5, 2/4/4, or 2/3/5.

alex43578 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

With current AI pricing for silicon, I think the math’s gone out the window.

For Apple, they have binning flexibility, with Pro/Max/Ultra, all the way down to iPads - and that’s after the node yields have been improved via the gazillion iPhone SoC dies.

NVIDIAs flexibility came from using some of those binned dies for GeForce cards, but the VRAM situation is clearly making that less important, as they’re cutting some of those SKUs for being too vram heavy relative to MSRP.

atq2119 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Datacenter GPU dies cannot be binned for Geforce because they lack fixed function graphics features. Raytracing acceleration in particular must be non-trivial area that you wouldn't want to spend on a datacenter die. Not to mention the data fabric is probably pretty different.

touisteur an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The A40, L40S and Blackwell 6000 Pro Server have RT cores. 3 datacenter GPUs.

If you want binning in action, the RTX ones other than the top ones, are it. Look for the A30 too, of which I was surprised there was no successor. Either they had better yields on Hopper or they didn't get enough from the A30...

alex43578 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m not saying their binning between data center and 3060s, but within gaming and between gaming and RTX Pro cards, there’s binning.

As you cut SMs from a die you move from the 3090 down the stack, for instance. That’s yield management right there.

wtallis 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> For Apple, they have binning flexibility, with Pro/Max/Ultra, all the way down to iPads

The Pro and Max chips are different dies, and the Ultra currently isn't even the same generation as the Max. And the iPads have never used any of those larger dies.

> NVIDIAs flexibility came from using some of those binned dies for GeForce cards

NVIDIA's datacenter chips don't even have display outputs, and have little to no fixed-function graphics hardware (raster and raytracing units), and entirely different memory PHYs (none of NVIDIA's consumer cards have ever used HBM).

alex43578 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They’re binning within those product lines - both NVIDIA and Apple.

Not binning an M4 Max for an iPhone, but an M4 Pro with a few GPU or CPU cores disabled is clearly a thing.

Same for NVIDIA. The 4080 is a 4090 die with some SMs disabled.

wtallis 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> The 4080 is a 4090 die with some SMs disabled.

The desktop 4090 uses the AD102 die, the laptop 4090 and desktop 4080 use the AD103 die, and the laptop 4080 uses the AD104 die. I'm not at all denying that binning is a thing, but you and other commenters are exaggerating the extent of it and underestimating how many separate dies are designed to span a wide product line like GPUs or Apple's computers/tablets/phones.

seanmcdirmid 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are levels inside pro, max, and ultra that might be the product of binning?

sgjohnson 7 hours ago | parent [-]

"Ultra" isn't even binned - it's just 2x "Max" chips connected together.

Otherwise, yes, if a chip doesn't make M4 Max, it can make M4 Pro. If not, M4. If not, A18 Pro. If not that, A18.

And even all of the above mentioned marketing names come in different core configurations. M4 Max can be 14 CPU Cores / 32 GPU cores, and it can also be 16 CPU cores and 40 GPU cores.

So yeah, I'd agree that Apple has _extreme_ binning flexibility. It's likely also the reason why we got A19 / A19 Pro / M5 first, and we still don't have M5 Pro or M5 Max yet. Yields not high enough for M5 Max yet.

Unfortunately I don't think they bin down even lower (say, to S chips used in Apple Watches), but maybe in the future they will.

In retrospect, Apple ditching Intel was truly a gamechanging move. They didn't even have to troll everyone by putting an Intel i9 into a chassis that couldn't even cool an i7 to boost the comparison figures, but I guess they had to hedge their bet.

wtallis 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> yes, if a chip doesn't make M4 Max, it can make M4 Pro. If not, M4. If not, A18 Pro. If not that, A18.

No, that's entirely wrong. All of those are different dies. The larger chips wouldn't even fit in phones, or most iPad motherboards, and I'm not sure a M4 Max or M4 Pro SoC package could even fit in a MacBook Air.

As a general rule, if you think a company might ever be selling a piece of silicon with more than half of it disabled, you're probably wrong and need to re-check your facts and assumptions.

seanmcdirmid 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, I think you have it wrong.

There are two levels of Max Chip, but think of a Max as two pros on die (this is simplification, you can also think of as pro as being two normal cores tied together), so a bad max can't be binned into a pro. But a high-spec Max can be binned into a low-spec Max.

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