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systemtest 12 hours ago

When I read about 996-style culture I am happy to be European. That would not work here. 40 hours per week max and most engineers prefer to not work more than 32 hours a week. So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

everlier 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm in EU and I can't agree this describes most engineers.

Overwork culture is also present here and exploited by a lot of companies.

joe_mamba 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I second this. On paper Austria has below average working hours in EU statistics but I've seen a lot of overwork in the tech companies I've been at by some people, but which was never officially reported because the workers themselves just went along with it.

Scandals in the papers around the crazy hours workers at big-4 consultancies in Vienna typically do, which again went unpunished by labor agencies, since there were no written orders from management imposing those long hours but workers just tactilely accepted it as part of the work culture there.

Similarly, a mate of mine at major finance gig in Frankfurt noticed that they were working longer hours than their colleagues from NY. Heard similar stories from colleagues from Italy and France.

So work hours are super dependent on local culture and industry. The meme about everyone in the EU being paid to slack off all day is not as common as people imagine, unless maybe you work for the government or got lucky to score a great gig in some dysfunctional monopolistic megacorp.

casparvitch 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've found in (EU) academia at least that people essentially lie about how much work they do. In anglosphere it's far more common for people to be open/expectant of 80 hour weeks etc. Probably the lieing approach is better for society/culture.

11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
OhMeadhbh 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

not everyone in the states is 996, but yeah, there's a pandemic of bad management here. or rather... not so much bad management... but management by people who read articles about how Amazon, a company with tens of thousands of engineers, manages projects and then decides they're going to manage their startup of 4 people the same way because they think it's a "growth hacking" hack.

just keep in mind that American tech startups are often just vehicles to evade estate tax. and certainly vehicles for converting VC money into more VC money by selling dreams to greater fools. there's also a down side.

dcastm 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is why fewer and fewer companies are hiring in Europe.

1121redblackgo 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And why people are jumping out of buildings, actually and metaphorically, in 996 cultures.

OhMeadhbh 12 hours ago | parent [-]

i think Amazon only had one person jump out of a building last year. it's not as common as you might think.

dbetteridge 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One is too many...

simianwords 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

magnitudes matter. i'm okay with one person dying like this if it ensures economic prosperity for rest of them.

zxcvasd 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"One company only had one suicide via jumping last year" is not a ringing endorsement.

trgn 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd say the exact opposite. engineering is markedly being outsourced to europe.

Macha 11 hours ago | parent [-]

There’s sort of a rotation going on in a lot of companies. There were companies which had Europe as the low cost location compared to America are now moving the type of work that had been done in America to Europe and what had been in Europe to India. But also companies treating European countries as high cost now and looking for new low cost countries

OhMeadhbh 11 hours ago | parent [-]

we also sort of effed up a while ago with changes to section 174... suddenly software devs in the states were 10%-25% more expensive. once that happened it made sense to see if moving devs to europe for situations where you have a european based product and sales team made sense.

in the states we've sort of repaired the damage of the section 174 changes, but i think they were rolled into a tax bill that sunsets in a few years. so we may see this again in 2029.

amarant 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are they? Do you have a source for that? My impression is that it's easier to find engineering work in Stockholm than in silicon valley atm, but I haven't measured objectively.

dcastm 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I live in Spain. I’ve been in the industry for the last 10 years.

I’ve seen from a very close distance several European companies move a big part of their operations to India. Have had close friends laid off recently and seen them struggle for months to find a new jobs. Plus, I see tighter freelance market these days.

This was unthinkable not long ago.

youngtaff 10 hours ago | parent [-]

UK companies have been moving IT or other operation functions to India for decades

It's the typical Western management behaviour of knowing the cost of everything but the value of nothing

joe_mamba 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stockholm is not representative of entire Europe same how SF isn't representative of entire NA. There's too many variables and shades of gray to give a simple answer, with closest to a correct answer being "it depends" based on where you live, how good you are and how in demand your skill set is to the demand of your local market, but the market is pretty much fucked in many high-CoL locations worldwide due to offshoring to cheaper locations and many businesses in Europe seeing orders fall.

amarant 9 hours ago | parent [-]

I deliberately chose to compare two tech-heavy locations to avoid weird and difficult comparisons like the tech industry in rural Nebraska Vs Moldavia.

Stockholm was a natural point of comparison for me given that I used to live there until very recently.i have a decent picture of the dev market in Stockholm. Silicon valley is the most mentioned tech centre on here, and is therefore the American tech market I know the most about (even if my knowledge is very limited in this front)

joe_mamba 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure but then you still can't extrapolate the comparison beyond SF and Stockholm. I'm also in Europe but the job market where I live don't give a shit about what it looks like in Stockholm but they can diverge massively.

11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
OhMeadhbh 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

is that for startups or for the big guys like Ericsson?

i have to admit i was surprised by how much startup activity was going on in Stockholm in the last 20 years. but disappointed by how few startups don't get B or C rounds or get bought after their A or B rounds run out.

Aurornis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't get the wrong impression from this article. 996 is exceedingly rare in the United States.

Most engineers in the US work normal 40 hour work weeks, too.

hxugufjfjf 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How does this work though? Do you have around 4 hours worth of work you report on? Are you paid for more than 4 hours? I’m so curious when people throw completely alien statements like this out like it’s something that doesn’t even warrant explanation.

systemtest 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I freelance. Occasionally I get called by former clients to work on legacy systems I was lead on. And I have some support tasks for former clients.

For one company I log on once a month, I start a Renovate process which generates pull-requests for updated dependencies. Patch-versions get auto-merged after tests succeed, minor and major need approval of the current lead. Sometimes I need to manually tweak the code a bit because of API changes or to get tests to pass. I'm allowed to bill them four hours on it regardless of actual work, which is between five minutes (no manual intervention required) and two hours (need to rewrite some code).

For another company I create a report once a month for all outages and which errors frequently show up in logging. I automated this to be a five minute task and it generates a Wiki page. I review the page to see if everything is ok. I bill an hour on this.

The company is happy to not have to allocate engineer hours on maintenance so they can continue pumping out new features.

I'd say that on average I work 4 hours and bill 12 hours. This is comparable to the income of someone in employment working around 24 hours. But I do run a significant risk obviously.

joe_mamba 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>I currently work 4 hours a week.

Which employers hand out 4h contracts?

Nextgrid 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Depends what one considers “work”; if you’re only counting focused, active coding work then there are places where 4 hours is the max you’re going to achieve of that anyway.

joe_mamba 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I count work the contracted time I need to be available/tied to my employer. Doesn't matter if I'm doing focused coding or not, it's still work because I can't be paragliding or swimming in that time, I need to be at the office or near my laptop, so it's not leisure, it's still work time.

But let's say it's only counting "focused work", 4h/week is huge stretch, unless we're competing in slacker olympics.

alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't have to work at an early stage startup - in fact most people don't. But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup, and plenty do in Europe as well.

> So you have a good work/life balance. I currently work 4 hours a week.

And this is why when I was a PM, we shut down our Amsterdam office and shifted it to Praha, Bucharest, and Warsaw. You won't find as many people who will complain about a 40 hour workweek while earning €80k TCs

Nextgrid 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As usual, the problem is not 996 itself but comp. You can get 996, you just have to pay for it.

The reason Europeans don't want to do 996 is because the extra effort isn't fairly compensated.

OhMeadhbh 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

if you surround yourself with people who are only motivated by money, you will believe that everyone is only motivated by money. if you surround yourself with people who are motivated by a creative urge to build something they can be proud of, you may start to believe that this is everyone's motivation.

it is often useful to think of people as only being motivated by one thing, to see clearly how application of that thing might change their behaviour. but if you believe that is the only thing that motivates them, you will have a very simplistic (and eventually incorrect) model of how they are motivated.

Nextgrid 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe 15 years ago I would've agreed because there was genuine innovation in tech where you could actually be passionate and proud of building it. "I want to work here because I want this product to exist" could've been a legitimate thing to say back in the day.

Nowadays with every market being saturated and tech being a race to the bottom quality-wise, what's there to be passionate about and/or proud of? Do you think people are proud of building yet another OpenAI wrapper or advertising surface? If they actually are proud of those I would feel pretty sad for them.

Also, the majority of landlords don't take payment in "passion" or "pride" and rents have skyrocketed since the glory days of tech.

OhMeadhbh 11 hours ago | parent [-]

i think it's still out there, but yeah, you have to wade through an amazing amount of poop to find it. insert here the joke about someone digging through the muck in a horse stable and the punch line is "there's got to be a pony in here somewhere."

mothballed 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Many people aren't motivated by money so much as wanting to spend as much time they can with their family, where they find their creative energies most rewarding.

Making the most money per hour merely allows me to spend more time with my family rather than working more for less and giving my creative energies to greater society or an employer instead of directly to my wife and children.

cmrdporcupine 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not only is it rarely compensated, it's rarely effective.

Software work is bursty and creative, not mechanical and hourly.

Nextgrid 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the occasional burst of activity can and does work, but it’s a budget you need to spend strategically and let it recover. Constant 996 indeed won’t work.

OhMeadhbh 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

you are lucky to have lived a career where that is true. it is largely true in the states and sometimes true in startups. there are corners of the world where it is less true than one would hope.

Nextgrid 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> there are corners of the world where it is less true than one would hope.

And it's readily visible in terms of software quality and technological capability of the company.

cmrdporcupine 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

and the quality of software produced that way shows

alephnerd 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a good callout - I have found European employers and founders to be much stingier with salaries in comparison to those I've worked with in the Bay or Israel, but I feel a lot of this is because of much more conservative investors, with boards pushing back on more "realistic" compensation.

I've been adamant about paying 75th percentile TC - I want the employees in my portfolio companies to be extremely motivated, and that requires incentivizing employees and founders correctly

youngtaff 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I wouldn't work 996 because I like having weekends off and a life outside work

pyrale 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> But some people do wish to participate in an early stage startup

You don't need to push yourself into burnout as an employee in order to participate in an early stage startup.

> earning €80k

80k€ gross is not a lot for a decent SWE in western europe. The reason people complain in Amsterdam is not the hours, it's that your comp is shit.

hahahahhaah 12 hours ago | parent [-]

140k AUD. In major cities in Australia that is a reasonable mid level salary. I imagine that is good in Prague.

pyrale 11 hours ago | parent [-]

It's a much better salary in Czech republic, Poland, etc, yes.

80k a few years ago was the price point at which you would get few Western Europe remote candidate and many Eastern Europe ones.

thesuavefactor 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Working more hours however =/= getting more done. In fact, some experiments show the opposite (within boundaries of course).

throwaway2037 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I disagree. It is more accurate to say that more working hours is a continuum of productivity. Imagine that you have two nearly identical software engineers. One works 40 hours per week and the other 41 hours per week. Which will be more productive? Very likely the 41 hour per week engineer. Now, if you compare 50 vs 51, then 60 vs 61, and so forth, the productivity gap will become much smaller, possibly hard to measure after 60. I have witnessed a few young engineers in my career with simply unbelievable work ethic and talents that could work 80+ hours a week for months on end. It was amazing to see, and their output was unmatched.

From personal experience, I worked like a dog in my younger years for two reasons: (1) To become a better engineer, you need to make a lot of mistakes and fix them yourself. (2) Much junior engineering work is just time in front of the screen pounding out simple features for a CRUD app. The more that you complete, the quicker you get promoted.

alephnerd 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I agree, but the issue is the impetus behind the statement. The tone which that poster took and the default negative assumption is a negative trait to most hiring managers - especially at the early stage. At an early stage organization, you want your employees to be self-motivated but also open to pull crunchtime if needed (eg. customer escalation, rolled up product launch, pivot)

hahahahhaah 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

4 is very low. Kind of an outlier.

I guess either you have wealth, very low costs or a great hourly rate, or you are the one person who got that Tim Ferriss book to work.