| ▲ | bandrami 5 hours ago |
| Why does healthcare "need disruption"? |
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| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Many people don’t get it, it’s really expensive, even in countries with non broken healthcare systems (not the us) costs increase rapidly and no one is sure how the systems will remain solvent with the same level of care given today. The way things are currently done are entrenched but not sustainable, that’s when disruptions are apt to appear. |
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| ▲ | scarab92 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Society pretends that human doctors are better than they really are, and AI is worse than it really is. It's the self-driving cars debate all over again. |
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| ▲ | wswin 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's inefficient and not living to its potential |
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| ▲ | bandrami 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And "disruption" (a pretty ill-defined term) is the solution to that? | | |
| ▲ | __loam 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The solution is single payer. Any attempt to solve this with technological band aids is completely futile. We know what the solution is because we see it work in every other developed nation. We don't have it because a class of billionaire doners doesn't want to pay into the system that allowed them to become fabulously wealthy. People who are claiming AI is the solution to healthcare access and affordability are delusional or lying to you. | | |
| ▲ | gradus_ad 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are good reasons to think single payer systems are not the answer. The numerous documented inefficiencies and inconveniences they suffer from don't need repeating here. And many single payer systems around the world only appear to work as well as they do because the US effectively subsidizes medical costs through its own out of control prices. |
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| ▲ | reaperducer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's inefficient and not living to its potential Yeah, because we saw what a great job the tech bros did making government more efficient. | |
| ▲ | plagiarist 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The inefficiency is the buying of yachts for billionaires. | | |
| ▲ | eru 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Compare: Google's founders can buy all the yachts they could possibly eat, yet Google Searches are offered for free. If we could get healthcare to that level, it would be great. For a less extreme example: Wal-Mart and Amazon have made plenty of people very rich, and they charge customers for their goods; but their entrance into the markets have arguable brought down prices. | | |
| ▲ | acdha an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Google's founders can buy all the yachts they could possibly eat, yet Google Searches are offered for free. Google searches cost many billions of dollars: your confusion is because the customer isn’t the person searching but the advertisers paying to influence them. Healthcare can’t work like that not just because the real costs are both much higher and resistant to economies of scale but, critically, there aren’t people with deep pockets lining up to pay for you to be healthy. That’s why every other developed country sees better results for less money: keeping people healthy is a social good, and political forces work for that better than raw economic incentives. | |
| ▲ | plagiarist 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wal-Mart and Amazon have reduced wages for employees and the quality of purchased goods more than they have improved prices for consumers. | | |
| ▲ | eru 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How do we know that? And why do customers come back to shop there? |
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| ▲ | __loam 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And Google search, a service on the level of a public utility, has been degrading noticeably for years in the face of shareholders demanding more and more returns. | | |
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| ▲ | harpratap 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because insurance companies incentivize upward price momentum. The ones who innovate and bring the prices down are not rewarded for their efforts. Health inflation is higher than headline inflation because of this absence of price pressure |
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| ▲ | eru 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I sympthatise with the argument. We should test it against real world data. Eg your argument would predict that healthcare price inflation is not as bad in areas with less insurance coverage. Eg for dental work (which is less often covered as far as I can tell), for (vanity) plastic surgery, or we can even check healthcare price inflation for vet care for pets. | |
| ▲ | threethirtytwo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This argument doesn’t make sense to me. Insurance companies are structurally incentivized to minimize payouts across the board. They want hospital bills lower, physician compensation lower, and patient payouts as small as possible. If insurers had unilateral power, total medical spending would collapse, not explode. The real source of high medical costs is the entity that sets the hospital bill in the first place. The explanation is much simpler than people want to admit, but emotionally uncomfortable: doctors and hospitals are paid more than the free market would otherwise justify. We hesitate to say this because they save lives, and we instinctively conflate moral worth with economic compensation. But markets don’t work that way. Economics does not reward people based on what they “deserve.” It rewards scarcity. And physician labor is artificially scarce. The supply of doctors is deliberately constrained. We are not operating in a free market here. Entry into the profession is made far more restrictive than is strictly necessary, not purely for safety, but to protect incumbents. This is classic supply-side restriction behavior, bordering on cartel dynamics. See, for example:
https://petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2022/03/15/ama-scope-of-p... We see similar behavior in law, but medicine is more insidious. Because medical practice genuinely requires guardrails to prevent harm and quackery, credentialing is non-negotiable. That necessity makes it uniquely easy to smuggle in protectionism under the banner of “safety.” The result is predictable: restricted supply, elevated wages, and persistently high medical costs. The problem isn’t mysterious, and it isn’t insurance companies. It’s a supply bottleneck created and defended by the profession itself. Insurance companies aren't innocent angels in this whole scenario either. When the hospital bill fucks them over they don't even blink twice when they turn around and fuck over the patient to bail themselves out. But make no mistake, insurance is the side effect, the profession itself is the core problem. | | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > This argument doesn’t make sense to me. Insurance companies are structurally incentivized to minimize payouts across the board. They want hospital bills lower, physician compensation lower, and patient payouts as small as possible. If insurers had unilateral power, total medical spending would collapse, not explode. They absolutely do not. They have their profit levels capped at 15% by law and regulation. That means if the insurer wants more absolute dollars of profit, prices must go up. It also means that if they push prices down they necessarily have less funding to administer those plans, even if the needs are the same (same number of belly buttons, same patient demographics and state of health). As you note there's also other variables, but this claim: "Insurance companies are structurally incentivized to minimize payouts across the board" is absolutely and categorically not so. |
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| ▲ | sergiotapia 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| because in america at least, the supply of doctors is kept artificially low. that combined with exploding administrative headcount, means patients are getting pretty terrible, expensive service. |
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| ▲ | sarchertech 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Physician compensation is around 9% of healthcare spending. The number of non-physician providers (NPs, PAs and specialists like physical therapists and podiatrists) has also exploded over the last 20 years. We have far more overall providers per capita than we did 20 years ago. Lack of providers isn’t what’s driving up costs. |
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| ▲ | dyauspitr 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seriously? Spending a night in a hospital results in a $10,000 bill (though the real out of pocket is significantly cheaper. God help you if you have no insurance though). Healthcare in the US is the thing that needs the biggest disruption. |
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| ▲ | gmueckl 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But no business is going to fix it. The market is captured. Only a radical change of insurance laws is going to have any impact. Mandate that insurance must be not for profit. Mandate at least decent minimal coverage standards and large insurance pools that must span age groups and risk groups. | | |
| ▲ | eru 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Many hospitals are already non-profit. That doesn't seem to bring down prices. Why would you think that this would work for insurance? Profit isn't even a big part of the overall revenue. > Mandate at least decent minimal coverage standards I assume you want higher coverage standards than what currently exists? Independently of whether that would be the morally right thing to do (or not), it would definitely increase prices. > and large insurance pools that must span age groups and risk groups. Why does your insurance need a pool? An actuary can tell you the risk, and you can price according to that. No need for any pooling. Pooling is just something you do, when you don't have good models (or when regulations forces you). | | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Why does your insurance need a pool? An actuary can tell you the risk, and you can price according to that. No need for any pooling. Pooling is just something you do, when you don't have good models (or when regulations forces you). Wuh? The more diverse the pool, the lower the risk. Your way of thinking will very quickly lead to "LiveCheap: the health insurance for fit, healthy under 30s only" for dollars a month, and "SucksToBeYou: the health insurance for the geriatric and chronically disabled" for the low low cost of "everything you have to give". | | |
| ▲ | eru 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You are mixing things up. There's insurance which allows you to convert an uncertain danger into a known payment. And then there's welfare and redistribution. By all means, please run some means testing and give the poor and sick or disabled extra money. Or even just outright pay their insurance premiums. But please finance that from general taxation, which is already progressive. Instead of effectively slapping an arbitrary tax on healthy people, whether they be rich or poor. And please don't give rich people extra stealth welfare, just because they are in less than ideal health, either. Just charge people insurance premiums in line with their expected health outcomes, and help poor people with the premiums using funds from general taxation. (Where poor here means: take their income and make an adjustment for disability etc.) We _want_ the guy who loses 5kg and gives up smoking to get lower insurance premiums. That's how you set incentives right. > The more diverse the pool, the lower the risk. No. The diversification comes from the insurance company running lots of uncorrelated contracts at the same time and having a big balance sheets. For that, it doesn't matter whether it's a pool of similar insurance contracts, or whether they have bets on your insurance contract, and on the price of rice in China, and playing the bookie on some sports outcomes etc. In fact, the more diversified they are, the better (in principle). But that diversification is completely independent of the pricing of your individual insurance contract. Have a look at Warren Buffett's 'March Madness' challenge, where he famously challenges people to predict all 67 outcomes of some basketball games to win a billion dollar. Warren Buffet ain't no fool: he doesn't need a pool, he can price the risk of someone winning this one off challenge. More generally, have a look at Prize indemnity insurance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_indemnity_insurance which helps insure many one-off events. |
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| ▲ | kunai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | These solutions are often proposed as easy fixes but I'm skeptical that they actually will do much to reduce healthcare costs. Healthcare is fundamentally expensive. Not-for-profit hospitals and for-profit hospitals don't really substantively differ in terms of out-of-pocket expenditures for patients; I find it difficult to imagine that forcing insurance companies to be nonprofit would do much to reduce costs. > large insurance pools that must span age groups and risk groups. What you describe (community rating) has been tried and it works. But it requires that a lot of young, healthy people enroll, and seniors receive most of the care. In an inverted demographic pyramid like most Western economies have, this is a ticking time bomb, so costs will continue to rise. > Mandate at least decent minimal coverage standards I think a better solution is to allow the government to threaten in negotiating prices with companies as Canada does; it greatly reduces rent-seeking behavior by pharmaceutical companies while allowing them to continue earning profits and innovating. (I understand a lot of the complaints against big pharma but they are actually one of the few sectors of the economy that doesn't park their wealth and actually uses it for substantive R&D, despite what the media will tell you, and countless lives have been saved because of pharma company profits) Essentially the gist of what I'm saying, as someone who has been involved with and studied this industry for the better part of five years, is that it's much more complex than what meets the eye. | | |
| ▲ | bandrami 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are a lot of not-for-profit insurance companies and they aren't noticably cheaper, though I'm not in HR and they may well be cheaper for the employer. |
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| ▲ | FireBeyond 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My fiance was in hospital recently for a fairly common disease. She arrived at 2200 Wednesday night and was discharged 1000 Saturday morning. Her bill before "insurance negotiated prices" was $59,000. Effectively $1,000/hr, 24/7. | |
| ▲ | kunai 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Disruption, yes, in the sense that the current system needs to be overhauled. But this is a space that's frequented by the SV and VC space and "disruption" has very different connotations, usually in the realm of thought that suggests some SV-brained solution to an existing problem. In some edge cases like Uber/Lyft, this upending of an existing market can yield substantial positive externalities for users. Other "heavy industry" adjacent sectors, not so much. Healthcare and aviation, not so much. Even SpaceX's vaunted "disruption" is just clever resource allocation; despite their iterative approach to building rockets being truly novel they're not market disruptors in the same way SV usually talks about them. And their approach has some very obvious flaws relative to more traditional companies like BO, which as of now has a lower failure-to-success ratio. I don't think you'll find many providers clamoring for an AI-assisted app that hallucinates nonexistent diseases, there are plenty of those already out there that draw the ire of many physicians. Where the industry needs to innovate is in the insurance space, which is responsible for the majority of costs, and the captive market and cartel behavior thereof means that this is a policy and government issue, not something that can be solved with rote Silicon Valley style startup-initiated disruption; that I would predict would quickly turn into dysfunction and eventual failure. Enshittification has done a lot of damage to the concept of "disrupting" markets. It's DOA in risk-averse fields. |
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| ▲ | miltonlost 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The part that needs disrupting is the billionaires who own insurance companies and demand profit from people's health . |
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| ▲ | zdragnar 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The profit in insurance is the volume, not the margin. Disrupting it will not dramatically change outcomes, and will require changes to regulation, not business policy. | | |
| ▲ | kunai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Agreed. I'd also argue that there will always be the issue of adverse selection, which in any system that doesn't mandate that all individuals be covered for healthcare regardless of risk profile, will continue to raise costs regardless of whether or not margins are good or bad. That dream died with the individual mandate, and if the nation moves even further away from universal healthcare, we will only see costs rise and not fall as companies shoulder more and more of the relative risk. |
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| ▲ | eru 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Profit is a small part of overall revenue. |
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