| ▲ | jameshart a day ago |
| Sure. And driving on the left is one of the most reasonable sides of the road to drive on, but in a country where everyone drives on the right, it’s good to accept that, though driving on the left offers just as many advantages, nonetheless you shouldn’t insist on continuing to do so. Markdown is also one of the most reasonable markup languages to use for text, and it has won sufficient share that it should be your default choice for lightweight markup, no matter how reasonable org-mode is. |
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| ▲ | babarock a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Are you suggesting I should pick the markup format for my private files according to the perceived popularity of another format? I'm not sure what's your point. Are you telling people who use org-mode that they shouldn't? |
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| ▲ | crazygringo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | If you think you'll ever want to use third-party tools to process that markup, or if some of your private files will transform into public files at some point, then yes, considering popularity makes a lot of sense. If they're just text files you edit raw that will never interact with anything else but your text editor, then of course popularity doesn't matter at all. But in my experience, my use cases tend to expand over time. The article even talks about org mode's interoperability, mainly about the fact that pandoc supports it. And then bizarrely ignores the fact that it has much less ecosystem support than Markdown. So this is very much a subject the article itself brings up, and something that therefore also deserves to be critiqued. | | |
| ▲ | adityaathalye a day ago | parent | next [-] | | OP here. I stuck with orgmode all these years /because/ of the interoperability. If I'm writing in Org, I can tangle / detangle between other plaintext sources, including source code. As well as export to collaborate. The proposition is "yes, and", not "either / or". It's /fine/ to switch to the popular "team" standard and stay there when needed. Several of my workplace documents, including wiki entries start off as local org-mode drafts. Once I'm okay to share, I export to markdown or draft wiki page and solicit comments. After that, if the document is for shared maintenance, I let my org-text alone, and switch to the "team" format. This is perfectly fine. That and the many kinds of markdown. I've been bitten enough by having to look up yet another poorly maintained document on how to markdown for /this/ particular app or website or utility, that I'd rather pandoc translate between my (sane, well documented, fully extensible) org text and whatever I need to share with others, than learn edge cases of various markdowns. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo a day ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but I think it's safe to say Markdown has more interoperability, no? Yes you can always use pandoc, but conversion usually brings quirks of its own. And more generally, the less conversion steps you need, the better. If you just stick to vanilla markup, you don't encounter incompatibilities. The "many kinds of markdown" isn't an issue if you're not using platform-specific extensions in the first place. Which, usually, you're not, unless you need to do something very specific to that application. | | |
| ▲ | adityaathalye a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, more interoperability at the cost of capability. Also, yes, conversion is quirky. That is why Org works until it does, and then I trade off being stymied by markdown's more plain-ness, in favour of collaborating with others. And with vanilla markup, the trouble is that many applications /do not/ use just vanilla markup. People /invariably/ want "one key tweak" (like, front-matter or table of contents or footnotes or some such thing), and everyone ends up doing their own thing. Perhaps the trouble with markdown is it's /too/ plain. So yes, lots of people can do lots of lowest common denominator stuff, but it does not extend to individuals wanting "just one thing" which also adds up to a lot of people. Edit: a real-life example... I typically run code from org-mode for interactive testing and debugging --- the kind of stuff we write small throwaway scripts for. In this one project, I made it so that /I/ or anyone else using org-mode could do it from org, for local development, and anyone else could just use the script as-is... including the CI pipeline. [1] https://gitlab.com/nilenso/cats/-/raw/master/README_TESTS.or... (notice that the gitignore procedure needed for this trick is self-executable from this org file itself, in addition to being self documenting) [2] https://gitlab.com/nilenso/cats/-/blob/master/bin/curl-tests... | | |
| ▲ | da_chicken 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Yes, more interoperability at the cost of capability. Well, then why aren't you using LaTeX? Isn't that more capable? > And with vanilla markup, the trouble is that many applications /do not/ use just vanilla markup. People /invariably/ want "one key tweak" And, that's going to be true as someone adopts it outside of Emacs, right? Surely, someone will decide that the way Org Mode is doing something is wrong, right? They're going to do something like say, "Hey, why don't we permit Markdown style headings, too?" or something similar. Or are you suggesting Org Mode military police? Felony markup possession? There's nothing special about Org Mode that makes it immune to the problems you're describing. They will happen immediately upon wider adoption. And if you somehow do stop it, well, it's tech. If you don't have a patent on it then someone will fork the idea and you'd have Borg Mode directly competing with you anyways. | | |
| ▲ | adityaathalye 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure... I use LaTeX when orgmode is insufficient. And I can use LaTeX from within orgmode too. Utility is Contextual. “When you are hungry, eat; when you are thirsty, drink; when you are tired, sleep.” - Wise UNIX Master Foo ---- http://catb.org/esr/writings/unix-koans/shell-tools.html Master Foo and the Shell Tools A Unix novice came to Master Foo and said: “I am confused. Is it not the Unix way that every program should concentrate on one thing and do it well?” Master Foo nodded. The novice continued: “Isn't it also the Unix way that the wheel should not be reinvented?” Master Foo nodded again. “Why, then, are there several tools with similar capabilities in text processing: sed, awk and Perl? With which one can I best practice the Unix way?” Master Foo asked the novice: “If you have a text file, what tool would you use to produce a copy with a few words in it replaced by strings of your choosing?” The novice frowned and said: “Perl's regexps would be excessive for so simple a task. I do not know awk, and I have been writing sed scripts in the last few weeks. As I have some experience with sed, at the moment I would prefer it. But if the job only needed to be done once rather than repeatedly, a text editor would suffice.” Master Foo nodded and replied: “When you are hungry, eat; when you are thirsty, drink; when you are tired, sleep.” Upon hearing this, the novice was enlightened. | | |
| ▲ | da_chicken 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Okay. You didn't seem to understand that that was a rhetorical question, because you didn't seem to take the next step of reflection. So, what does your comment to me say if used in response to your own org mode vs markdown comment you made in the post I responded to? You said org mode's capabilities are the reason why you don't want markdown. You keep making this argument that org mode is just better, but you can immediately find a counterargument yourself to your own point. Now, it's perfectly fine that that represents how you feel about the software. You can hold whatever opinion you want. But, you're not just trying to explain your opinion. You're trying to convince people that org mode is better. You understand why you're not being very persuasive in your argument, right? You've argued in a way that the only people who will agree with you are those that already hold the same opinion as you. |
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| ▲ | thayne 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If I just stick to vanilla markdown, then I don't have features that I would really like in my notes, like tables, footnotes, etc. |
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| ▲ | cicko 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ahem. When I started with Markdown, I was regularly experiencing all the issues mentioned for years. The most popular format was Word (doc). Perhaps I should have stuck with that? |
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| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No? I’m pushing back against advocacy for broader adoption of org mode beyond personal file markup though, which is what I feel like this piece is arguing. > note that this is not about Emacs at all. This is about Org mode syntax and its advantages even when used outside of Emacs. | |
| ▲ | tialaramex a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | One of the advantages of "going with the flow" when you can is that you benefit from numbers. You're a market of one, but by "going with the flow" the total market is huge. Even if for me personally 185V mains power would be better, I can't buy gear for 185V, none of the electricians around here know how to work with it, the cables and sockets and everything else are defined around the prevailing systems at 220-250V here. Maybe in my kitchen a 520mm dishwasher would be great, but alas dishwashers you can buy here are 600mm or 450mm ("slimeline") models, so 520mm isn't available. With my poor hearing 14-bit PCM would be absolutely fine, but Sony's "Compact Disc" used 16-bit so that's what everybody uses and records by default. If you work with Markdown, there are a lot of existing tools which are ready to use. There are tools for Org Mode, but maybe not as many. There's definitely a sliding scale here. Refusing to use Twitter because it's full of Nazis is very different from refusing to conform to society's expectation that you wear clothes outside for example. There are people willing to spend most of their lives in jail because they refuse to wear clothes but almost all of us don't think that's a principle we care about enough to prioritise (also some of us get cold). | | |
| ▲ | grogenaut 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | bro we're talking about text formats for organizational skills not justifying public nudity |
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| ▲ | weslleyskah a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a matter of taste, isn't it? It's like LaTeX vs. Typst. You create the environment that works best for you. |
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| ▲ | crazygringo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | In my experience, not really. I'd love to use Typst, you have no idea -- but when most journals require you to use their LaTeX template, then my personal taste doesn't really enter into the equation. | |
| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | For personal workflows, yes. In your own backyard, you decide what side of the road you drive on. But when building a product for other people to use - a messaging tool like slack or a commenting platform like GitHub code review…? | | |
| ▲ | tikhonj a day ago | parent | next [-] | | GitHub has at least some support for org-mode rendering. Which is a good reminder that a lot of this stuff really doesn't have to be a stark either-or choice—a lot of standardization isn't inevitable or natural or necessary, but just a choice we happen to make, often for systemic reasons that aren't inherently justified (legibility/etc). | |
| ▲ | fipar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What if you're building a product for other people like you to use? I think this is very common, like people building tools for trackers vs Ableton/Live/etc style DAWs, or those writing software only targeting the OS they use? Not every product is built with the goal of worldwide adoption. Back to the specific case being discussed, I can easily export usable markdown from org. The people I share it with have never noticed it wasn't markdown since the start, so why wouldn't I continue to use org even when interacting with people who don't? It makes my private side of the exchange better for me, and it doesn't affect the public side negatively for others. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent [-] | | There are whole countries that drive on the left | | |
| ▲ | fipar 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, though in the case of driving, if I prefer driving on the left, I'd have to move, since I live in a country where you must drive on the right, but to use org-mode instead of markdown, I just ... use org-mode? I'm afraid I don't understand your point here, sorry. |
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| ▲ | johanvts a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You cant even paste markdown into Slack, it’s embarrassing. |
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| ▲ | wibbily a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Markdown (subjectively) looks better than Org when it’s plaintext - postfix headers and dashed lists are annoying to parse but they distinguish sections visually. Org by comparison feels like a sea of asterisks. (I am tickled by the /italic/ syntax though…) |
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| ▲ | drob518 a day ago | parent [-] | | I don’t like using “-“ for bullets and “*” for headings. I do love underlines for underlined text, slash for italics, and asterisks for bold. Other than that, po-tay-to, po-tah-to. Let’s all just pick one and use it consistently. I do agree with the argument that says “Markdown” is meaningless and you’re always forced to ask “What do you mean by that? Which flavor, exactly?” But that happens with anything “lightweight” as it is inevitably extended to deal with more complex demands and becomes more heavyweight in the process. |
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| ▲ | thayne 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Markdown is worse than other formats in many ways. It has several ambiguities, there are significant variations between implementations, fairly basic features like tables, footnotes, strikethrough, etc. are "extensions" that aren't widely supported. The only real advantage of markdown is that it is has because more ubiquitous/popular than others, possibly in part because it is relatively easy to implement, as long as you don't care that much about exact compatibility with other implementations. |
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| ▲ | jrm4 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is advice that I would have rolled with pre-Generative AI. Today, I'm not so sure. I'm actually way used to zim-wiki syntax because that's what I started off with; and already "moving it around" is becoming orders of magnitude easier given the ability to vibe-code tons of little scripts that make it work better with everything else -- and while this might seem a bit counter to the point -- I think one can reasonably rely on the idea of "market share isn't that important anymore compared to 'you, personally, should use the thing that works the best for you because translation will get orders of magnitude easier.'" |
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| ▲ | bitwize a day ago | parent [-] | | > This is advice that I would have rolled with pre-Generative AI. /me laughs in pandoc |
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| ▲ | KarlVoit 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would ask you to read the article before writing a comment like that. The whole point of the article is that there is no Markdown. At least not a single instance from it. So when you're referring to Markdown, you're actually referring to a few dozens of slightly different markup languages which are hard to identify and except for a few, very tedious to convert. In my opinion, this is far from being "reasonable". Orgdown is explicitly mentioned only as one LML that doesn't come with the listed downsides of Markdown. So if you think that my article tries to convince you to use orgdown instead, you've missed the part where I say that there are many good alternatives of Markdown that do perform better when it comes to real world processes. I just tried to use orgdown as one example among many to state my point by showing an alternative. If you think that orgdown is the only one, you did not read the article carefully enough. YMMV |
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| ▲ | noahjk a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm surprised nobody else brought it up - what are the pros of left-hand driving? Is it about where the controls are in relation to handedness? Some sort of safety benefit? Better visibility in certain scenarios? And are postal carriers in America who drive LLVs getting the _best_ or the _worst_ of both worlds? (I like to think about these sorts of things!) |
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| ▲ | vishnuharidas 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've driven both. Drove LHD for more than a decade in India. Now driving in RHD country for 2y now. Personally, I enjoy RHD more because I am right-handed and I get to do things easily with my RH. Otherwise, I realized that safety benefits comes from the driving discipline and not driving on a particular side of the road. Driving on Aus/Japan is way safer than India, despite all of them being LHD. | | |
| ▲ | al_borland 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | How does RHD make it easier to do things with your right hand? I’m right-handed in a LHD country, and this means I used my right hand for almost everything. The gear selector, radio, climate controls, GPS… all done with my right hand. My left hand controls the turn signal, that’s about it. I think I’d have a very hard time with a RHD car where I need to be precise with buttons and touch screens using my left hand. |
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| ▲ | 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | sorrythanks a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| this is so true. i wrote a document in org and i'm still in the hospital after crashing into someone's markdown file |
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| ▲ | Andrex a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And here I am still carrying the torch for BBCode-alikes... |
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| ▲ | skeledrew a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Markdown can be trivially embedded in org-mode, so no need to even miss out on that which "won sufficient share":
* Org with md block
#+begin_src markdown
.....
#+end_src Markdown may be a winner, but preferring it when org-mode exists is like tying both arms behind my back and trying to do serious things with my feet. |
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| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent | next [-] | | So like, ```org-mode
* this is org
```
?
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| ▲ | skeledrew a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Yep. I wouldn't like to see the result of embedding any org of reasonable complexity in md though, while I've embedded pretty complex md in org. And performed various operations on the whole thing, but now we're going from syntax to (Emacs) features. | |
| ▲ | asyncze a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | drob518 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m not sure I see the benefit in that. | | |
| ▲ | skeledrew a day ago | parent [-] | | Org is essentially the parent of _all_ other plaintext formats, and is able to treat them specifically at the native level. So for example there's a single command to run a code block, but the code runner is correctly resolved. And multiple blocks in different languages can communicate with each other. Entire projects can be placed in a single org files and still operate as though they're separate files. Literate programming is a breeze. Organization of anything is trivial. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent [-] | | The argument being made is not ‘org-mode is a reasonable alternative to a filesystem for organizing textual files’, it is ‘org-mode is a reasonable lightweight textual markup language’. The fact you can replace entire project and documentation systems with org-mode is not an argument in favor of its lightweight text markup. | | |
| ▲ | skeledrew 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yet text markup doesn't exist in a vacuum, heavy or light. Text is marked up in the first place so it can be better processed by a computer, while keeping it reasonably readable by humans. And there are a variety of markup formats out there as some given person gets the idea that doing it X way makes it most ideal for both use cases. Org-mode is a extremely lightweight, likely more so than md, AND allows for complex levels of processing WHILE maintaining that lightweightedness. The feature variety already exist as proof, at least in Emacs. |
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| ▲ | bitwize a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| As long as we're telling people they should conform to what everyone else uses, why aren't you using Microsoft Word format instead? |
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| ▲ | jameshart a day ago | parent [-] | | We are talking about choosing a lightweight text markup language. Not choosing a file format for rich text files. |
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