| |
| ▲ | mikepurvis a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe, but that isn't really what the GP post is talking about. At the level of mythology, the eye-earth is place where people of that group belong without judgment or limitation. No different from Harry Potter or Narnia or any other fantasy place one might imagine going where they can be with their people. In any case, I'm not sure this even survives transposing to other senses that humans are weak in, such as smell (like prey animals) or magnetic direction (like migratory birds). A human who randomly had these would indeed be seen as superpowered, but that wouldn't become a statement that all regularly-abled humans are now disabled for missing the "critical" long range sense. | | |
| ▲ | kazinator a day ago | parent [-] | | I wonder whether all the animals of Eyeth are also deaf, and how they are doing? Deaf predators must have a field day sneaking up on deaf prey. As life evolved on Earth, so did the senses that life forms possess, and that happened for a reason. If you hare missing some senses, there is a sense in which you are set back millions of years of evolution. It's not just about human society, but biology. Someone with no sensory disabilities, sent into the wilderness, has better chances of survival than someone with such disabilities, other factors being equal. That has nothing to do with society, which is absent from that scene. Civilization is the best place for people with disabilities, even if it is geared toward those without. For that matter, it's better for animals with disabilities. People help disabled pets lead quality lives; wild animals with disabilities don't live long. | | |
| ▲ | basilikum a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That's all factually correct. Though both things can be true: Disabilities can be a disability in themselves and additionally the disabled can also be disabled by the society around them. Someone fully blind might not be able to distinguish some poisonous mushroom from an edible one with the same shape and smell but different color. That is a fundamental limitation of the inability to see. But blind people can for example still read. They are often just not provided by others with writings that are accessible to them, although that would be possible and is not a fundamental limitation of their condition. Also ableism and othering are very much a thing that disables peoples' ability to function in a society and come exclusively from the social environment rather than from the disabled themselves. | |
| ▲ | kayodelycaon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’d like to add a quick sidenote . I wouldn’t read too much into the logic of mythological worlds and realms. Their purpose is narrative, not scientific. They don’t even need to be internally consistent. No one expects Greek mythology to make scientific sense. Other mythologies should be seen from a similar perspective and understood that they are narrative, not logical. Applying a scientific viewpoint to such mythologies results in a new narrative. The scientific view is always wrong unless scientific correctness is part of that world’s narrative. I add this because a lot of people don’t know narrative purpose. To put it briefly: Other peoples worlds aren’t wrong when they don’t match “what makes sense in the real world”. | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent [-] | | So it's all just vibes? | | |
| ▲ | kayodelycaon 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No. It’s actually philosophy. Let me put this in another terms. The whole purpose of the world they are describing is to imagine a place where they are not limited. The fact that this place doesn’t make sense or can’t exist is irrelevant. It was made to be aspirational, not realistic. | |
| ▲ | 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
| |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thank you for writing this so I didn't have to. |
|
| |
| ▲ | wizzwizz4 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Meh, my formidable powers of foresight aren't really a superpower. Few people listen until things have progressed far enough that they see the things, too, by which point there are rarely many interventions available. And every time we do intervene early, that's "you said this would happen and it didn't happen!", making it harder to convince people the next time. And when things do turn out more-or-less as predicted, I "made a lucky guess" because "there was no way you could have known that". In the land of the blind, why would anyone pay attention to this weirdo's ramblings about "rain-clouds"? Obviously they're just feeling changes to temperature, pressure, and humidity. Oh, and they know what shapes things are? Wow! So does everyone else who's touched the things. Sure, that "how many fingers am I holding up?" party trick is pretty neat (probably cold reading), but not something we should make policy decisions on the basis of. You underestimate the extent to which humans are social creatures. See also: H. G. Wells's story The Country of the Blind. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Country_of_the_Blind | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent [-] | | Vision is absolutely a superpower if everyone else is blind. Just think how far you can shoot something with a rifle and scope. Guns are useless to blind people. A person who can see has an enormous advantage over a blind person in a fight. Try to imagine a military where everyone is blind fighting against another where everyone can see. | | |
| ▲ | philipswood a day ago | parent [-] | | In a blind culture there probably are no guns at all - so your hypothetical sighted-person-amongst-the-blind would need to be able to make his own. Then again, just throwing rocks might be pretty effective. | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent [-] | | A slingshot or bow and arrows would be amazingly effective if everyone else was blind. | | |
| ▲ | wizzwizz4 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | And, again, is one person going to develop those? A person with access to elastic rope might invent the slingshot, but I wouldn't expect them to invent the far superior sling: it's not obvious that the sling is better, since the learning curve is steeper. And a slingshot is not a particularly effective weapon: it's an inefficient bow that can't fire arrows. You're still thinking in terms of "sighted society versus blind society", which is not what we are discussing. (Unless you're thinking "sighted and superintelligent", in which case I'd say sight is probably redundant.) | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ok. Just evading blind people would be absurdly easy if you can see. You could accurately throw rocks and run away from them all day. And being attacked from a distance would be terrifying to blind people. | | |
| ▲ | wizzwizz4 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Blind people are no less capable of throwing stones, and you only have the flight advantage if the ground is potentially-treacherous (e.g. unmanaged forest, scrubland) or you're that much faster. Any inhabited area will have been engineered to be safe for people to navigate – and it will not be lit well at night, where your reliance on vision will put you at a skill disadvantage. The main advantage in an urban combat environment, I think, would be the ability to detect quiet people at a distance. Not needing to see makes it easier to hide yourself from visual inspection, but why would anyone develop this skill if nobody can see? Then, if the only person to practice with is the enemy you're trying to hide from… Also, you'd be able to dodge projectiles by watching the person throwing them, who might not telegraph their throws audibly, but would probably do so visually. This would let you defeat a single ranged opponent, possibly two – though I doubt your ability to dodge the rocks from three people at once for long enough to take one down. But what do you gain from winning fights against small numbers of people? (I doubt very much you could win against a group of 30 or 40 opponents, with only sight as your advantage.) You would run out of food, shelter would be hard to come by, and every theft of resources would risk defeat: and one defeat against a society means it's over. Either you're killed, imprisoned, or they decide to do something else with you, presumably depending how much of a menace you've been. Your only options are to attempt a self-sufficient lifestyle (which you probably won't survive for long), to flee somewhere they haven't heard of your deeds, or to put yourself at the mercy of the justice system (and hope it isn't too retributive). |
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | throwway120385 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only in that narrow viewpoint. Most people talk about disability in the context of a society because much of what we encounter in our day to day is created by other people. The sights, sounds, smells, and experiences in our world are frequently because of others. So in that context, if the dominant culture makes it a point to create experiences that require hearing or sight to consume, then yes it's a disability. But if we adapt some or all of what we do for people who don't have those senses, then we can make it less disabling. | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Sight and hearing evolved to incredible acuity because they give enormous survival advantage. | |
| ▲ | suddenlybananas a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | While it's good for society to accommodate those with disabilities as much as possible, we shouldn't pretend it isn't detrimental to be unable to see or hear. You don't need to believe obvious falsehoods in order to accommodate people. | | |
| ▲ | lurk2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I’ve always found this semantic argument somewhat silly as being blind or deaf is an obvious disadvantage in natural contexts, but one of the more compelling ideas here is that the fitness boundary isn’t fixed. It would probably be a fitness advantage if I could sense electromagnetic fields, but no one would describe me as disabled for not being able to sense these fields—unless, perhaps, everyone else could. So what we consider to be a disability does seem to be a function of what we consider to be normal. | | |
| ▲ | kazinator a day ago | parent | next [-] | | If it were a fitness advantage if you could sense electromagnetic fields, then why have you evolved over billions of years to get where you are, without it? But wait, you do sense electromagnetic fields in the 380 to 750 nm wavelength range, and remarkably well, to great profit. The only fitness advantage that matters for evolution is whatever gets you to pass down your genes, versus someone else not passing down theirs. If sensing low-frequency electromagnetism, or static magnetic fields, were advantageous in the context of everything else that you are, for passing down your genes, you would have it by now. Migratory birds can sense the Earth's magnetic field for navigation; if you needed to migrate thousands of kilometers every year (due to lacking other advantages to make that unnecessary), you might evolve that. | | |
| ▲ | zmgsabst a day ago | parent [-] | | Evolution is highly path dependent and stochastic, so I’m not sure your logic follows. Eg, the laryngeal nerve in giraffes is ridiculous — but having gone down that path before their current form, there’s little way to fix it. They’re now stuck in a local optima of long necks (good) with poor wiring (bad). | | |
| ▲ | kazinator 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes it it path dependent; my example alludes to it. Birds benefit from being able to sense the magnetic field for navigation precisely because they evolved the ability to fly, and the endurance to do that over long distances. In that context, not losing your bearing is a fitness advantage. | |
| ▲ | UltraSane a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Vision has evolved numerous times, with estimates suggesting eyes or light-sensitive spots have appeared independently at least 40 to 65 times, possibly even 100 times, across different animal lineages. Hearing has evolved numerous times independently, at least six times in major vertebrate groups (mammals, lizards, frogs, birds, crocodiles, turtles) for airborne sound and at least 19-20 times in insects Vision and hearing have evolved so many times because they give an absolutely huge survival advantage. | | |
| ▲ | avadodin 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you have sources for these claims? To my knowledge, photosensitivity has arisen a few times independently and eyes again a few times from shared photosensitive receptors in animalia but I'm fairly sure hearing in the groups you mention is a tetrapod synapomorphy. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | rdtsc 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > if I could sense electromagnetic fields, but no one would describe me as disabled for not being able to sense these fields—unless, perhaps, everyone else could. Light is EM fields. A possible scenario is a battle at night with others having night vision equipment and you don’t. You can absolutely be described as disabled or being at a significant disadvantage. Because, like you say, what we consider normal in that scenario is to have a proper night vision equipment. | |
| ▲ | suddenlybananas a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >So what we consider to be a disability does seem to be a function of what we consider to be normal. Obviously? How could it be based on anything else? People are just much more uncomfortable with making normative statements than they used to be. | | |
| ▲ | lurk2 a day ago | parent [-] | | > How could it be based on anything else? The point is that the capability is measurable but the capabilities we consider to be essential are based on normalcy and thus effectively arbitrary. Eugenicists make the argument that evolution demonstrates that the classification is not arbitrary because deafness and blindness confer measurable fitness disadvantages, but they don’t actually bridge the gap of deriving an ought from an is. > Obviously? If the answers to these problems are obvious to you, perhaps you’d consider writing a book instead of participating in a discussion forum. I would encourage you to review the site guidelines. |
|
| |
| ▲ | fwip a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You've set up a straw man here - nobody in this thread is claiming that it's not detrimental to be missing a sense. The point is that disability exists within the context of the world we live in, and the society we've built is one that largely assumes people have both sight and hearing. | | |
| ▲ | xigoi 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Sensory disabilities like deafness and blindness are disabling because the world is not oriented to people with sensory disabilities. Implying that they wouldn’t be detrimental if the world was “oriented” differently. | | |
| ▲ | retrac 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Since I'm the person who wrote that I can explain what I meant. I have never had to deal with a giant cat stalking me and being unable to hear it. I do routinely have to deal with intercom systems which I cannot hear, though. The world most humans inhabit is human-made. And the human-made environment can be remade. | |
| ▲ | fwip 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ah, I see the disconnect. In this discussion, "disabling" is not the same as "detrimental." Disabling is when you are unable to do important activities that others can do. I'm not an expert here on the subject, but this is my understanding. For a simplified example, imagine two government buildings, one with and one without an accessibility ramp. A person in a wheelchair is able to access the former, even if going up the ramp takes longer than the stairs. Not having the option to take the stairs is still detrimental to the person, but they're still able to access those services. The second disables the person, as they're no longer able to access important services because they are unable to take the stairs. Accommodations help keep "detrimental" from meaning disabled. The voice at the street crossing that says "walk", curb cuts, and closed captioning all help people participate in daily normal life, despite having those sensory disabilities. There are other designs that are more holistic as well - for example, if those same government services are accessible online, or the agent makes house calls, it naturally makes the services more accessible to more people. (Note: I'm not saying that this specific example is a good idea - just as an example of "how we design our society affects how people can participate in it.") | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are limits to accomodations and a blind person is never going to be a good sniper |
|
|
|
|
|
|