This is a bad idea in terms of security in war

Or a good one, forcing governments to have robust infrastructure that this info isn't useful. Similar reasoning as with security and open source software.

	▲	juahan 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yeah, and it’s not like the enemy would take the information from here, they already have it and likely even more detailed. It is quite basic stuff to have when preparing to defend (or attack).

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jcims 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most of this physical infrastructure is trivially identifiable in Google Maps.

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matkoniecz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

someone having ability to precisely target other country likely would not be stopped much by need to find power plants themselves

while such open data has also positive effects

have you considered both? it is not like deleting power plant from single map would hide it

disclaimer: I am OpenStreetMap contributor

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Towaway69 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Berlin, Germany just had a blackout because a left from centre organisation decided to set an electric exchange on fire. Right over new years and at a very cold time of year.

Apparently the data on where the exchange was and how it would affect the surrounding neighbourhoods was openly available. The neighbourhoods affect were largely affluent.

It’s probably also the reason why this is being reshared.

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mathis 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The location of the recent blackout is here: https://openinframap.org/#12.98/52.43214/13.26948

One can see easily make out the power station Lichterfelde and the affected substation inside of it. The area to the east of the power station was without power between Saturday and Thursday morning.

	▲	jotaen a day ago \| parent [-]
		> The area to the east of the power station s/east/west/ (I.e., the area left of the power station.)

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sam_lowry_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So what? The benefits of openly sharing this info greatly outweight the risks.

I heard multiple times that professionals in the energy sector relied on shitty, difficult to obtain and incomplete information until the open source revolution.

Soviet Union heavily edited publicly available maps, although it had great cartography for the military-industrial complex. And where it is now?

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Towaway69 2 days ago | parent [-]

So what?

Have I said that it's bad or good? I was just pointing out that yes, apparently data like this does get used in for bad things. I am not judging, as you seem to assume, I'm pointing out.

It's a pity that others aren't as broad minded to consider both or all sides of technology. Technology isn't always automatically an improvement of the current situation. Yes it might solve the obvious problem but there are also side effects. Social media, for example, is a good demonstration of a bunch of side effects that weren't intended.

And so it is with open infrastructure, it can have unwanted side effects and we should be aware of those instead of hand waving them away. Mitigation here is difficult: open access and meshing up of data is important and should be encouraged. Hiding this data away won't help.

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misiek08 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

If you are not interested in disrupting the grid then yes - you implied it’s bad. You only mentioned the bad sides of such info being widely available.

And like already mentioned in more nested comments - it’s not difficult to get such info if you are determined enough.

	▲	Towaway69 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		I stated a fact - it really happened and it was so communicated that the left-of-centre organisation obtained their information online, your assumption that I'm "implying it's bad" is in your head. Facts are neutral.

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antonvs 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Have I said that it's bad or good?

…and then you go on to imply it has bad side effects. But you haven’t actually made that case. Do you really believe that a hostile group would have difficulty finding important infrastructure to attack without an open infrastructure map?

	▲	JumpCrisscross 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> Do you really believe that a hostile group would have difficulty finding important infrastructure to attack without an open infrastructure map? I honestly do. A large part of what protects open, free societies is that the smartest people generally have better things to do than blowing shit up. If you’ve ever taken a close look at any heavy infrastructure, it should strike you how easy it would be to break into and disable (particularly if you aren’t concerned about getting caught). On the balance, I still prefer these data being open. But there probably is a domestic-terrorism risk that’s amplified.

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antonvs 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You can drive around an area you’re interested in, or look at satellite or aerial photos, to find these facilities. “Security by obscurity” is no more useful here than it is in software systems.

	▲	Towaway69 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		You can also just randomly nuke a country or invade it for its resources. Or poison the internet with AI generated garbage. There are many alternatives to acting nefariously, this is just one.
	▲	yakshaving_jgt a day ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Security by obscurity is actually useful, to some degree.