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| ▲ | QGQBGdeZREunxLe 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I work remote and was offered a chance to move to the US. Exactly the same job both sides of the border but US pay was +30% and joint-filing cut my taxes significantly. I was also able to get a few health issues sorted that had been denied by provincial insurance. The thing that really pushed me to leave though was housing costs relative to income. In Canada it has reached absurd levels. It was well into the 50% of take home pay going to housing. Here's it's less than a third. | |
| ▲ | beej71 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One of my friends was an H1B here about a decade ago. He and his wife had a kid in the US, but then left shortly thereafter back to Europe. He said our social systems were "shameful" and neither of them was interested in sending their kid to a school in the US. And I'm reasonably certain now that they view their child's US citizenship as low-value. All of which sucks. They are talented professionals and we drove them away. | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Chinese salaries aren’t bad in tech, especially compared to Europe/Japan/Taiwan but even when compared to Canada. It’s pretty clear where talent could go in the future at least if Europe doesn’t up its game. | | |
| ▲ | decimalenough 2 days ago | parent [-] | | China is not welcoming to talent unless it's Chinese, and since COVID there has actually been an exodus of both locals and expats out of the country. They belatedly recognized this and introduced a "K visa" specifically to draw in talent, but the mere possibility of this bringing Indians has created a furious backlash. https://chinaglobalsouth.com/2025/10/05/china-k-visa-indian-... | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 2 days ago | parent [-] | | China goes up and down on this, I was there when foreigner employment was on the rise, but that fell off even before COVID. A lot of people left during COVID, surely, but that is recovering now as well. While you aren’t wrong, I think it’s totally possible for their AI and automation boom to draw in significant world talent again. You’ll see first other Asians (mostly Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese) working in China, they are definitely less noticeable. The rest will follow, Chinese are a lot less xenophobic snd more pragmatic than they appear. |
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| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I personally would be much more happy to work for lower pay than contributing to the prosperity of such a predatory country. Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this) Then I admire your principled position, but you're one in a million. | | |
| ▲ | optionalsquid 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | According to eurostat [1], > In 2020, 70% of the population in the EU lived in a household owning their home, while the remaining 30% lived in rented housing. So it does not seem like the price situation is as dire as you suggest, though Germany is on the lower end of the ownership scale. Personally, I had a flatmate (rented a room) for one year during my studies, but I don't know anyone currently living with flatmates. Plus, it's not like you have to live in the middle of the capital, thanks to extensive public transport [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/w... | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 a day ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for the link, intresting. I must be missing something, how do these stats square with home prices being in the 200-500-infinity range ballpark and, a very decent for Europe, salary being 50 thousand euro or so? Oh, and all these news reports saying how young Europeans have to live with their parents until their thirties? |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | First of all, I am an EU citizen and I absolutely don't have to split rent with any flatmates. In fact, I own my residence. Second, I did in fact split my rent with flatmates during my 6 years of college, we lived 5 people in about 200sqft, then my first job I split and apartment with 3 other people. That was luxurious already! Sure, it would tricky to live like that if you have a family, but as a young person? It's fine, actually, it was a great learning experience. Anyways, what I want to tell you is that life is not that bad in the EU and things can be much much worse than the current status quo. Personally, I have no concern for myself or my comfort, but for my family. I could live in a box in a ditch. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If you own, you hit a jackpot, basically. Then, yes, life in Europe can be very nice. Sharing an apartment while in college is OK, even fun in my book. We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?) Go check out, say, Berlin salaries on levels.fyi or glassdoor or wherever you prefer and filter out US companies. Given these conditions, 80000 euro is an amazing salary. Your take home is going to be around 46400 or 3860 euro monthly. Then head to immoscout24 and check rent prices in Berlin. Let me spoil it a little, a two-bedroom, two-bathroom 65-80 square meters apartment is starting from 1500 euro or so plus 200-300 euro for heating plus the rest of utilities. Or 2000 euro monthly in total. So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin. | | |
| ▲ | RealityVoid 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > We're talking about immigrants though, right? (If you don't want more of us in your country, I don't think you're a monster, btw. But entertain me anyway?) I was more talking about the choice to remain in my home country vs move to the US. And I assure you, I personally don't care where you come from as long as you do your job, we can understand each other and you're not a raging asshole. My only pet peeves with immigrants is the people who never bother to engage with the host culture at all. I find it a bit disrespectful, but that's a personal take. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 a day ago | parent [-] | | > I was more talking about the choice to remain in my home country vs move to the US. Fair point. I just realized I was replying from the perspective of attracting talent which obviously different from keeping it. Glad things worked out for you. Staying close to loved ones and friends sure wins over pursuing money, as long as the situation is not outright dire. |
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| ▲ | optionalsquid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin. I live in a higher cost-of-living city than Berlin, and could easily make it through the month on 1860 EUR, once rent and utilities have been paid | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What would your expences look like, if you don't mind sharing? |
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| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > So after rent you're left with what, 1860 euro? Good luck getting through the month with that money in Berlin. I’m confused. Is Berlin more expensive than I think it is or you never cook yourself? ~~~Add: how do manage to pay more than 50% in effective taxes?~~~ | | |
| ▲ | yc-kraln 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What costs are you calculating with that, net of taxes and rent, you can't survive as a single or even couple on 1800€+ in Berlin? Like the median income here is extremely low, that salary puts you in the top 10%. Help me understand because this doesn't make sense at all to me--context: living in Berlin the last 13 years | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Your questions are likely addressed to me. Well, maybe things are better than I imagine. Would you be comfortable sharing a few things? Thanks! What're your monthly expenses? After rent, that is. Just groceries, a mobile plan, some clothes averaged over the year, etc. Do you have an emergency fund? If so, what's the ballpark sum? Are you going to be able to still pay rent when you retire? Are you saving for a downpayment? Do you feel financial secure enough to star a family? Can you afford to visit some far-away place with beautiful nature once a year? Can you afford to go... idk, skiing? Can you afford all the gear needed to do that and a few lessons? Can you buy a gaming PC with something like rtx 5070 or so? Not into gaming? Can you afford a homelab made up of a few used PCs and a few Raspberry Pies to play around with Kubernetes or whatnot? | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not me. I guess the GP wants to save 1k a month in case the nuclear war happens and drives a car to eat kebabs for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That sounds about right for American, so the saving are going towards health issues down the line. /s | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | And GP guesses your comment might be using humor as a coping mechanism. I'm not American, the question was why Europe can't keep talent ("talent" doesn't really include me). Well, the compensation is just depressing. And as that person from Ireland pointed out, all the talk about worker protections is barely more than fairy tales (maybe not in the Netherlands, idk). Were we looking at 120 instead of 80, deciding between Europe's quality of life and pursuing career and money in the US would a real tough dilemma. With 80 just enough to pay rent and for groceries... Saving a thousand a month (a wild sum!) gets you to a 20% downpayment on a 500K home in just 8 years... | | |
| ▲ | Muromec a day ago | parent [-] | | I got it that you were talking about the real situation and you personally have to live with flatmates while making 80k p/a, but it turns out you don't even live in Germany. My feeling are hurt by this and the fact that your math is not mathing really (what 20% downpayment?). | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > My feeling are hurt by this Well, my feelings are hurt by seeing so many talented engineers getting compensated so badly. How come that for all the signing and dancing about worker rights protections when push comes to shove it's US companies EU offices that are ready to pay their employees fairly? What kind of hypocrisy from EU companies is that? If you think EU companies just cannot afford to pay that much, just compare what Siemens pays to the same level SWE in EU and US. (Have no relation to Siemens whatsoever, just an example). | |
| ▲ | myk9001 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't feel like discussing my personal situation on the Internet. And was careful not to imply otherwise. That said, I was considering relocating to Germany and researching the country as best I could. I do prefer European lifestyle, but the salaries are just a non-starter. You can easily check the numbers I give though. Any specific mistakes there? Btw, why are you so defensive about the fact comp is so low in Europe? > your math is not mathing really (what 20% downpayment?). > what 20% downpayment? 20% downpayment is generally expected by German banks if you want to take out a mortgage. Don't take my word for it, check yourself. 500K Eur x 0.2 / (12 * 1K Eur) = 8.3 years. You implied that saving 1K a month is some absurd goal. I'm trying to show that's tablestakes if you hope to ever own a home. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec a day ago | parent [-] | | >Btw, why are you so defensive about the fact comp is so low in Europe? It's lower compared to the US and to US companies offices in EU in absolute numbers, it's the fact. Why it's lower in general -- because the cost of living is lower. Why US companies in EU have to pay premium -- because they try to behave like in US and pay premium to their delusions of grandeur. >You implied that saving 1K a month is some absurd goal. I'm trying to show that's tablestakes if you hope to ever own a home. I do in fact own a house and lived through this situation. It's not that the goal is absurd in itself, it simply doesn't match the story as a whole. >You can easily check the numbers I give though. Any specific mistakes there? From the start, two bedroom at 80k salary for living alone is already an interesting choice for 2026. You either get a better salary, a partner who works, a smaller place or live in a village. The same with the rest -- you can't have both the grind-based compensation and chill-based lifestyle. It's not that individual things in your calculation don't hold the water, it's more like they different numbers don't correspond to the same real person when taken together. If you have marketable skills that warrant the lifestyle fancier than the normal IT person slapping some forms together in a bank, you will not get 80k. I would also not go for Europe in general (especially for 80k) if you don't have 50-100k of saving already and have the expectations like this. Grind some in US (if you are of acceptable skin color for them), then go and chill here once you are done with the grind. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | > From the start, two bedroom at 80k salary for living alone is already an interesting choice for 2026. Fair point. That example comes from my research, but trying to anonymize it somewhat I ended up messing it up completely. I ack it doesn't make sense as is. And saying that a job in tech won't be enough to rent a place on your own was stupid too. > Why US companies in EU have to pay premium -- because they try to behave like in US and pay premium to their delusions of grandeur. From my perspective they pay more because they actually value skilled employees. (Shocking, isn't it? US companies valuing their people more than European companies do). And hiring the best, in turn, lets them outcompete European business, make more money and compensate their people better -- on and on it goes. > they try to behave like in US In reality, save for a rare exception, they treat their employees nicely in both US and EU. Or at least they used to before we entered the current layoffs era -- but people say big Berlin tech companies have become just as toxic (DeliveryHero, Zalando...). So it doesn't look like European companies are stopped from being toxic by labor law or better ethics. > Why it's lower in general -- because the cost of living is lower That's not the whole story though. Obviously comparing absolute numbers is a fool's errand. But the purchasing power is significantly lower too. And, like, OK, maybe matching US salaries purchasing power isn't realistic -- but my feeling is current EU comps are below a fair level. Companies pay that simply because they can get away with it. > Grind some in US (if you are of acceptable skin color for them), then go and chill here once you are done with the grind. That's not a bad idea at all. I'm good though. Found my way and am doing fine for now and, hopefully, long-term too. It just pains me to watch so much wasted potential. Yeah, it's none of my business and it's dumb that a non-EU citizen even has strong opinions about this stuff. But EU could do so much better if only it got its shit together instead of this pathetic "but we got public transport" style coping. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Companies pay that simply because they can get away with it. Which is usually called "market price". The latest thing I heard is "threemodal market", where there tier 1, is US subsidiaries, tier 2 is local it companies and banks, and tier 3 is a normal not fancy place. Upper tiers are more competitive and tier 1 can have 200k and up compensation packages (that including shares, and stuff), lower end of tier 3 and something like 50-60k. Then there are hourly contracts too. >But EU could do so much better if only it got its shit together instead of this pathetic "but we got public transport" style coping. It's a pretty shallow dismissal. Not having to deal with cars and heal insurance bullshit for my whole life saves me how much money exactly? Not even monetary amount, the peace of mind alone. How much would you pay to let you child cycle to school and generally not be afraid of environment? There is even deeper level of belief to this sometimes, that you being able to afford food delivery or eating out every day isn't a good indication of the state of the society, but I don't want to go there. I lived in a place with 5% flat tax rates too and I'm here by choice, paying for all that really. |
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| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Where is more than 50% coming from? If you aren't married your effective tax rate is at 42% (tax plus social deductions which aren't technically taxes). Tons of tax calculators available online, see for yourself. > you never cook yourself? I do cook but it's not like groceries are free. And what about saving for an emergency fund, a downpayment, a vacation, a new PC, laptop, phone. Or, god forbid, a car? Do you feel safe and stress-free paying 51% of your take home comp just for rent? And keep in mind, 80K eur is top 1-5% salary. The overwhelming majority doesn't make that much. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I misread 80k p/a for 8k monthly. You have a point. I would not get two bedroom two bathroom apartment for myself alone however. Or live in Berlin for that matter. Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Having a sweet 30% reduction of taxable salary was very nice, otherwive learn sone cooking and get an income-generating partner to top it up. Now after layoffs and AI-bullshit depressing wages it doesn't sound nice at all and node of us is in IT is Mr. Fancy anymore. And of course, mandatory -- don't go to western europe, everything is expensive, locals are racist, taxes are high and the weather is bad. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 a day ago | parent [-] | | > Few years ago in Holland it was something like 100k salary == mortgage for 500k house. No downpayment, 2k monthly. Would it be wrong to think that the borrower would repay a potential downpayment a few times over to the bank? How much smaller that 2k mortgage payment would be with a 20% downpayment? And how much larger the share going towards the mortgage body would be? If only the borrower's comp was just big enough to let them save for that downpayment. Don't know about you, but to me it sounds almost as if the system was rigged against the worker, to redistribute wealth away from them and into the hands of employers and bankers. |
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| ▲ | prmoustache 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I moved from one rich country (Switzerland) to Spain 6 years ago and accepted dividing my pay by 3 to do this move (pay increased in the meantime and is no 60% of what it was in CH). Basically the only thing that cost more to me now are holidays abroad and I will expect a lower retirement package but quality of life hasn't been reduced. I could live 200m from the beach without having to share rent with flatmates and now own my place, have easy access to the sea, mountains, great bicycle riding roads and trails with few and respectful drivers, nice places to hangout and good climate to spend time outside. And I wouldn't trade that to the terrible (to me) quality of life in the USA: road rage, gun violence, car dependency, stupid urbanism, litigation culture, next level puritanism and hypocrisy aren't for me. | | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Even if that pay was so much lower that you'd have to split your rent with flatmates? (yes, European comp is typically that bad, not oveblowing this) In tech? Not really. Village kids having studies in the city -- sure, when they are too fancy to live in a dormitory. Tech is more like having a mortgage without your partner contributing kind of salary. | | |
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| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > because of how employee friendly the laws are. Do you have anything specific in mind? Maybe European law if friendlier to employees on avarege. But in tech US companies seem to offer similar if not better conditions. E.g., Amazon is widely considered an employer straight from hell, and yet they offer 3 monthly salaries when letting an engineer go -- that's more than a European employees typically gets. On the other hand, both layoffs and long-hours aren't unheard of in, say, Getmany. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent [-] | | 3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. That and having a 2 years burnout leave as an option and having trade unions and the regulator to sign off on your layoffs plan in more reputable places. Add: It's not that layoffs are not a thing, they are a bit more complicated and expensive for a company than getting a list of people and sending mass-email, then blocking all access. | | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > 3 months is nothing really. Half a year is more the start of negotiation in a comparable place in Europe. Employment law differs wildly from country to country, there is no general European labour law (with the exception of the working time directive). For instance, I live in Ireland where you can fire anyone for any reason for the first six months, and are not required to pay redundancy until after they've been employed two years. The statutory redundancy limits on wages are super low for tech, so it's almost free to do layoffs. Additionally, firing people is not really very hard, you just need to have a reason, and follow a process. You need to give a verbal warning, then a written warning, and then fire. You can't fire people because they don't suck up to you, but you can basically find a reason if you want to. I recognise that Germany/Austria/France are different, but that's exactly my point, there is very little common European labour law. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I recognise that Germany/Austria/France are different, but that's exactly my point, there is very little common European labour law. So, I don't live in Germany but I tried to look into how things work there a little deeper. It seems to have a lot in common with what you describe about Ireland actually. | | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 a day ago | parent [-] | | That's possible, but Germany has much stronger unions and work contracts than we would in Ireland. In Ireland, companies are not obliged to recognize a union and can do other forms of employer representation instead. This is quite different from other EU countries. | | |
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| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you have a link to a labor law stating it's half a year? | | |
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| ▲ | qingcharles 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thank you. I've been saying the same thing since forever. In Europe if you say you want to start your own company you get a lot of "why would you do that? why not take a nice government job with a pension?" For all of the USA's myriad flaws, if you say the same thing people will cheer you on. It infuriates the fuck out of me that practically all the success of the Internet era has come out of one single country that can't even come up with a way to provide healthcare or vacations for their population. | | |
| ▲ | myk9001 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Majority of innovation comes out of that single country. What's really infuriating is Europe isn't even trying to compete beyond paying some lip service. | | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not really true. There are European startups, they make it big and you heard of them and used their products. The concentration in US is a thing, because that's where the money is. |
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| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's more of a problem with big established companies and less in startups really. What I'm familiar with is -- initially everyone gets a temporary 1 year contract. Contract could be not extended, but the company commits to 1 year. After two extensions, you get a permanent one and can't be fired because you look funny to your boss. Then there is outsourcing, where the contract with their company can be dropped. They are more expensive and have 1 year contracts too. People on permanent contracts have to be persuaded to sign separation agreement and have leverage over you. I have seen some funny examples of management trying to fuck over people for no good reason and then having to continue paying them for 2 years without seeing any output, but that was not a 10 people shop that would go under for it and was self-inflicted too. They mood in Europe is you as a company owner have to take the risks, not the employees. Which is reflected into salaries of course. For the startups it's not the problem I saw so far, as they benefit from having to pay lower then otherwise salary, without actually taking the risk. If the company goes under, everyone goes back to job market anyway. |
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