I recently made a radical proposal of public domain rules; It's inspired by GNU software licenses. It goes like this:

1. Anyone can use anything that is in the public domain.

2. Any creation that uses elements from the public domain is also, automatically, in the public domain.

3. Activate retroactively: When the first book in a series (for example) gets into the public domain, then the whole series (and franchise) becomes public domain.

(3) depends on what the initial rule is for something to get into the public domain.

P.S: It's a thought experiment, not an actual "let's implement it now!" thing.

▲

ivan_gammel 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That would make any movies based on stories in public domain impossible, because it would destroy all financial incentives to make them. No, derivative works should be on their own terms.

▲

neiman 13 hours ago | parent [-]

A few questions:

1. People still do software based on the GNU license. What's the difference?

2. I'm a mathematician - math is not copyrighted, yet it's still being done.

3. Is it really so important for society that copyrighted movies be based on old stories? Won't society benefit from new stories and characters?

To be clear, I don't propose to really implement it. But the existing system also sucks. I'm thinking that maybe incorporating such an idea into the existing system - limiting what you can do with public domain work - can be beneficial.

▲

ivan_gammel 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>People still do software based on the GNU license. What's the difference?

The right question to ask is what do they have in common, and the answer is nothing but an artificial legal construct of IP. To write public domain software you need a computer and 2 sqm of space (or even less) that you occupy while working. Material resources needed to shoot one movie are one big reason you need financial model.

2. math is irrelevant here, has nothing in common with movies or music

3. yes. It’s our culture and our history.

▲

pastor_williams 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're comparing apples and really big complicated apples. Books are protected by copyright and they only need a computer and 2 sqm of space, right? People make copyright protected videos with 2 sqm of space and a phone that get as many views as many large budget movies.

I think the differences between inventing a story or song and inventing a theory are not as great as you pretend.

The big difference really is status quo and tradition.

▲

ivan_gammel 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>I think the differences between inventing a story or song and inventing a theory are not as great as you pretend.

I do not pretend anything and I‘m not talking about inventing a story. I‘m talking about movie production, which, even with heavy use of AI is by orders of magnitude more expensive than a piece of free software, and certainly cannot be done with a single computer.

▲

pastor_williams 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Why are you choosing to compare inventing math to producing a movie? How does that help you advance your argument that it is reasonable for one to be under copyright and not the other?

Movies absolutely can be created with one computer. There was a movie shot entirely on an iphone. They can be edited on an iphone too. Heck, movies can be created without a single computer. That was the only way to make movies for many decades.

	▲	ivan_gammel 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> Why are you choosing to compare inventing math to producing a movie? I don’t understand where did you get that from. I did not „choose“ that. Please re-read the conversation. > There was a movie shot entirely on an iphone. And? Are you claiming that someone can shoot „All quiet on Western front“ with iPhone and on low budget? > Heck, movies can be created without a single computer. That was the only way to make movies for many decades. Yes. What is your argument exactly?

▲

dfxm12 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If something is important culturally and historically, financial incentives aren't really important (assuming you're not making a joke about Hollywood being creatively bankrupt).

	▲	ivan_gammel 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Whenever it concerns expensive production, and historical pieces are inevitably not „Blair witch“ cheap, financial model is very important. Given that this suggestion implies that copyright still exists, the film makers will have to choose either to raise money from state or donations to make something from public domain works or to explore material that is still copyrighted and count on box office and streaming revenues. The boundary between those choices is set to a random expiration number, the incentives are obviously skewed towards better pay, so chances are high that whatever enters public domain will be quickly forgotten by the public.

▲

MobiusHorizons 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is an interesting thought experiment, but would pretty much make standalone copy able creative work like photography, books, music, or movies impossible to sell. Works could be created on commission, but there would be a strong disincentive for producing any work without commission.

1. People who make money from GPL software typically make their money from support contracts or from running a service. Unlike software, photography, books, music and movies don’t require any ongoing maintenance once created to keep them running or up to date. There is some value in the distribution of physical copies, but digital distribution would have almost no value.

2. Math is pretty much in this boat already. Most math work is either directly paid for by a company that consumes it, or is academic work with incredibly high barriers to entry and constant hustling for grant funding. I wouldn’t wish that on any field, would you?

3. Take for example Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. While the characters are new, they draw upon a rich mythology from the public domain (eg dragons, goblins, wizards, witches, etc).

It is an interesting discussion, but I expect removing the freedom to use public domain works outside of the public domain would was to very bad outcomes.

▲

dspillett 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> 1. People still do software based on the GNU license. What's the difference?

The GPL family of licences are significantly different from Public Domain. There is still the option of relicensing for commercial use, for example, which is moot under a public domain status. Though some¹ treat the GPL as PD anyway…

MIT might be a more valid comparator, so to answer the question from that PoV: Money. Many OSS contributors do it to scratch their own itch, or for some definition of “community”, the cost of contribution is generally low (or feels like free) and they don't need anything back. Some are supported by donations or sponsorship but not the majority. Those in commercial environments are supporting projects (by contributions or sponsorship) that are useful to that commercial interest, so there is a benefit there but no need for direct payment (they may get payment for support and/or consulting services or via subscriptions for a paid-for hosted instance of whatever). Someone making a film of a book, or a licensed sequel/prequel/other, unless they are doing it for love or just shits & giggles like some fan-made efforts, generally needs/wants to make profit from it, especially in the case of film/TV which can have a large up-front cost - that is unlikely to happen if the new derived work is automatically public domain.

> 2. […] math is not copyrighted, yet it's still being done.

Not for Hollywood level money, it usually isn't :)

> 3. […] Won't society benefit from new stories and characters?

Yes, it certainly would IMO. But it turns out there is less easy money in that. People flock en-mass to works based on familiar IP more than they do to original works, for better or (often) worse. To paraphrase MiB: A person is classy and appreciates original good art, people are a bunch of dumb consumers of fast food for the mind.

Original works do sometimes smash through that barrier of course, they then often become the new IP that a bunch of derived works are based on so in several years time they are part of the cycle makers of new original works are competing with.

> 3. Is it really so important for society that copyrighted movies be based on old stories? […]

No. But it is important for the entertainment industry, for the reason noted above. What is good for society isn't necessarily the same as what people are willing to pay for, and what is good for the producers of works (away from those doing it purely for their own satisfaction or sense of artistic vision) is what people are willing to pay to experience.

--------

[1] Onyx, makers of the Boox line of GPL violating e-ink devices, to name one of them², see comments on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41412582 for more discussion about that.

[2] I pick them out from that small crowd because I might have been interested enough to buy one of their products were it not for this issue. Unfortunately many buyers are unaware of the matter, or are aware but don't care sufficiently for it to change their buying decision.

▲

tgv 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

#1 is known to be problematic in open source, so it would need qualifications. #2 is so broad, it would make practically anything PD. And there's no reason for #3. It might even be implied by #2.