> If a pool can set up a situation where they mine a block and wait X seconds to reveal it, they can force other miners to waste X seconds of has power and gain an advantage.

How is it wasted if they work on the current chain? If they find a block during those X seconds, they'll propagate it before the waiting pool does. The waiting pool will then just lose the revenue from the block they put on hold. They're the ones wasting mining time when that happens, while the others never do.

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emil-lp 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you mine a block without revealing it, not only are you the only one that can mine the next block after that, but everyone is mining on the "wrong head". There's of course the risk that someone finds a different head in the meantime, but otherwise, you waste competitors' resources, while you get an advantage on the next block.

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copirate an hour ago | parent [-]

They are not mining on the wrong head. They are mining on the current head. If they find a block it will be accepted as the new head and the withheld block will be rejected, so it's not wasted mining time at all.

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palata an hour ago | parent [-]

Not an expert, but I have to thoughts:

1. They don't have to wait until another miner finds a block, they can just wait "for some time" and then release their block. All that time gives them the edge for the next block.

2. My understanding is that if two different blocks are found concurrently for the same head, then the network waits for the next block to select which "new head" is accepted. I.e. when there are competing chains, the longer chain wins. So I could imagine that a strategy could be to wait until some other miner announces their block and release yours precisely at that time, hence creating two competing chains. But you presumably have an edge because you have already been mining for a while on top of your block.

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copirate an hour ago | parent [-]

There's no edge. Having spent time mining in the past doesn't increase your odds of finding a block in the future.

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adwn 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

The idea is that you can start with the next head earlier than all the others, giving you an edge in being the first to find the next block.

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copirate 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

But what do they gain by doing that? What's the edge? Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage.

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palata 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Starting earlier doesn't give you any advantage

It's a race. Starting earlier obviously gives an advantage?!

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copirate 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

No it's not a race, it's a lottery.

It would be like saying you've an edge if you start earlier at the roulette.

	▲	palata 6 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I think you're confused. In a lottery, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances to have the winning number. If we played with a roulette and said "the goal is to be the first to have a winning number at the roulette" and I could try 50 times before you started, obviously I would be more likely to win our game, wouldn't I?

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RealityVoid 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Right, but the odds of this happening is small(ish) - I'm certain there is a sweet spot for witholding time. If they don't find a block within the time interval, then effectively all the work for that time is "wasted" by the other participants since it could not have been put on the chain anyway AND the witholder has a headstart of a couple of seconds searching for a new block.

	▲	copirate an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Wasting time would mean not receiving the rewards if they find a block. But that's not the case here. If they find a block within the time interval, they get the rewards (and the withheld block is discarded).

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yellow_lead 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I might be wrong but I think it's like this..

A finds a block after 1 minute, then powers off and waits for another minute. They reveal the block after 2 minutes.

B searches for the block for 2 minutes.

After 2 minutes, A has used 1 minute of their compute, and B has used 2.

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copirate an hour ago | parent [-]

But the time spent by B is not wasted. If they find a block between minute 1 and 2, their block will be accepted, and A just lose the reward of the block they found.

	▲	palata 11 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		When you reveal a block, it's not accepted instantaneously. When two competing blocks are revealed "roughly at the same time", it ends up in two competing chains. If B finds a block between minute 1 and 2, they start working on their competing chain, but A is already working on theirs. And A had a headstart because it started working on it somewhere between minute 1. So it's more likely that A's fork wins the race in the end.