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atmosx 15 hours ago

I believe the terminology is off. The author seems to confuse cynicism with realism.

Cynicism is specific trait and has only negative connotations. It cannot be “good” for a social structure by definition.

Realism is neutral. But we often assume that realism implies cynicism which is not true.

Parrhesia (tact) is the only worthwhile, long term goal in terms of attitude. And that doesn’t include cynicism. It’s about being honest without feeling like betraying yourself.

“Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." - (supposedly) Isaac Newton

auggierose 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> “Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy." - (supposedly) Isaac Newton

Never heard of this quote, but I could certainly use a large dose of tact as defined above! The quote seems to be due to an advertising executive though, Howard W. Newton, not Isaac Newton [1].

[1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/07/18/tact/

atmosx 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I can relate, thanks for sharing. Indeed, that doesn't sound like something that Isaac Newton[^1] would say :-)

[^1]: My idea of Isaac Newton comes from Stephenson's novel. But I trust that Mr Stephenson's research because it aligns with Newton's other quotes (i.e. "standing in the shoulder of giants" is nice but he's calling another man a moron, eloquently) and the his relationship with Leibniz wasn't the one I would expect.

exomonk 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"While widely shared as a Newton quote, the earliest known source is advertising executive Howard W. Newton, from a 1946 magazine."

Advertisers probably understand people better than physicists.

kelnos 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't really agree. The dictionary definition of cynical is "believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others".

That's certainly very extreme, but a tempered, measured belief in the negative aspects of human nature is necessary, I think.

You might say, "that's just realism", but I think they are just separate axes: some amount of cynicism (and idealism) is necessary in order to be realistic. Possibly different amounts in different contexts, depending on the other people involved.

bostik 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Humans are unavoidable optimists and (sadly) the only sustainable approach is to assume the worst of everyone.

Then when they eventually outdo even your worst expectations, you will be less disappointed by the gap between your original impression and the fresh dose of reality. I've adopted a motto that I could finally put words on about a decade ago. "You are not cynical enough."

And no, not even after accounting for the above.

zwnow 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Thats how Finland made it to one of the "happiest" countries. People just not expecting anything from anyone, so if by chance something is even slightly above the bare minimum, its been good.

bostik 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Oddly enough I happen to be Finnish, and formed my view of the world during my first twenty'ish years in there. That view has served me well over the subsequent decades.

It's no surprise or secret that I have since left the country.

igouy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Skeptical.

admiralrohan 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cynicism inherently has no negative connotations. People misrepresented it.

The definition of cynicism as per Google "an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest".

This statement has nothing inherently negative. It's science, backed by evolution. The whole economic system is based on incentive analysis, the concept of invisible hand. Software architects are taught the Principle of least privilege, why? Because of cynicism, not trusting motive of others. But for everyday life people can't handle it mentally coz they love to think everyone giving them without any expectations.

I know this sounds counterintuitive but this space is limited to write more. If you have clarifying question you can ask me.

threethirtytwo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the terminology objection here is mostly semantic and misses what the author is actually claiming.

No one experiences their own beliefs as “cynical” or “optimistic.” Everyone believes they are being realistic. A cynic does not think “I am distorting reality negatively.” He thinks “this is how things really are.” The labels cynic and optimist are almost always imposed by observers, not chosen by the believer. When someone calls himself a cynic, what he usually means is that others perceive his conclusions, which he believes are factual, as negative.

So the core claim is not that cynicism is a mood or an attitude to aspire to. The claim is that reality itself is often negative, and that people who arrive at pessimistic conclusions are sometimes closer to the truth than people who default to hopeful narratives. Calling that “realism” instead of “cynicism” does not change the substance of the argument.

There is also actual empirical work here, not just vibes. In psychology this shows up under what is sometimes called depressive realism. Multiple studies starting with Alloy and Abramson in the late 1970s found that mildly depressed subjects were more accurate than non depressed subjects at judging contingency, control, and likelihood in certain experimental settings. Non depressed subjects systematically overestimated their influence and future outcomes, while depressed subjects were closer to objective probabilities. Later work refined this and showed the effect is bounded and context dependent, but the core point survived: positive mental health is often associated with optimistic bias, not neutral accuracy.

More broadly, a large literature on optimism bias and self serving bias shows that psychologically healthy people tend to overestimate success, underestimate risk, and interpret ambiguous evidence in their favor. That bias is adaptive and motivating, but it is still a bias. People who lack it tend to have more internally consistent and stable world models, even if those models are less emotionally pleasant.

So saying “realism is neutral” is true in the abstract, but psychologically misleading. Humans do not converge on realism by default. They converge on motivated belief. When someone repeatedly reaches pessimistic conclusions across domains, it is at least plausible that they are sampling reality with fewer affective filters, not merely indulging in a negative personality trait.

That does not mean cynicism is virtuous, or that it should guide social behavior. Tact and parrhesia are social strategies. They are orthogonal to whether your internal model of the world is accurate. You can be accurate and tactful, accurate and abrasive, inaccurate and pleasant, or inaccurate and hostile. Mixing those axes together is what creates confusion here.

The real disagreement is not about tone or attitude. It is about whether optimistic distortions are a feature or a bug. Psychology suggests they are a feature for well being, but a bug for accuracy.

igouy 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, the terminology is off — skepticism.

verisimi 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It cannot be “good” for a social structure by definition.

Is 'good for the social structure' the metric to use for defining good? Should we be serving the social structure to be 'good'?

atmosx 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Hehe. These are tough questions. I had a specific scope in mind. But to answer your questions.

> Is 'good for the social structure' the metric to use for defining good?

No.

> Should we be serving the social structure to be 'good'?

Yes.

Does that make sense? :-)

verisimi 12 hours ago | parent [-]

It makes sense.

But, imagine the case where I do not think serving the social structure is good. And I make what sound like cynical jokes about serving the social structure. For those that believe in serving the social structure, that cynicism only had negative connotations. But for those who don't believe all that, the bitter joke might accurately reflect their understanding according to reality.

atmosx 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Let me narrow the scope a bit. I believe that distrust in others is a flaw in human psychology. But it's old and has been stated by the likes of Plato and Dostoyevsky (e.g. "If God did not exist, everything would be acceptable") and countless others that I look up to.

IMO that is a "series-B" type of argument. We know empirically that great things come out of putting trust on the hands of "unlikely candidates". So even if God doesn't exist, ppl are still capable of "good" just because they chose to do so, given the chance.

At the same time, it would be unwise to blindly trust ppl when there are warnings all around. So why not take a tempered approach? Trust a little, then trust a little more. The "applied answer" (e.g. social policies) falls within a spectrum that might change based on circumstance, there's no absolute representation as if we're picking a point in a Y/X axis, only optimal answers (like NP-complete problems).

I wouldn't call the tempered approach "cynical", I would call that "wise".

verisimi 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I believe that distrust in others is a flaw in human psychology.

It sounds like you've never met a narcissist or psychopath. I hope you never do. I think your tempered approach is fine, but still doesn't work for some types of personality.

DyslexicAtheist 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

cynicism can also be a label applied by those with toxic positivity to anything that is actually realism

Muromec 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That often boils down to being downwind from the proverbal fan vs having a switch to turn it on and off.

hackable_sand 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The converse is true

atmosx 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Absolutely.