I chose to spend most of my career at a company that did stuff I found morally acceptable (inspiring, even). I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

I have found that mentioning that, elicits scorn and derision from many in tech.

Eh. Whatevs. I'm OK with it (but it appears a lot of others aren't, which mystifies me).

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pear01 a day ago | parent | next [-]

I believe what you are running up against is a tendency to externalize shame as anger.

Part of the tradeoff the parent comment references is a lack of thinking about the moral ramifications. Thus, when you mention your position which is grounded in that tradeoff's opposite, the reaction is not surprising. They are largely incompatible. Because your position hinges on a moral component, you are thus passing a moral judgement on others. This is often met with scorn, most especially because people have an aversion to shame, and it doesn't help if it's on the behalf of someone essentially randomly declaring they are morally better than you anytime the topic of their employment comes up.

So really, I'm not sure why you would be surprised, though I sympathize with your general sentiments, in a way you should know better. Surely you are aware of the aversion to shame writ large. That seems a logical predicate of your own conceptualization of your position.

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ChrisMarshallNY a day ago | parent [-]

> I'm not sure why you would be surprised

Maybe because I'm not especially interested in passing moral judgment on others, for working at a company that isn't a "moral high ground" company, but isn't exactly NSO or Palantir (I used to work for a defense contractor). I feel profoundly lucky to have found a company that made me feel good about what I did. It was worth the low salary (and other annoyances). I understand that I'm fortunate, and I'm grateful (not snotty).

I find that people take the mere existence of others that have different morals to be a personal attack.

I know that it happens, but I'm not really sure why. It's not like I'm thinking about comparing to others, when I say that I worked for a company that inspired me. I was simply sharing what I did, and why.

I read comments about people that are excited about what they do, and even how much they make, all the time (I spend a lot of time on HN), and never feel as if they are somehow attacking me. They are enthusiastic, and maybe even proud of what they do, and want to show off. I often enjoy that.

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pear01 a day ago | parent [-]

To be candid, this is a common refrain that simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

> I'm not especially interested in passing moral judgment on others

Earlier:

> I chose to spend most of my career at a company that did stuff I found morally acceptable (inspiring, even). I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

Put more succinctly:

"I work somewhere that is morally acceptable. I could have made double or more if I had worked at a 'more dodgy', less morally acceptable place. Like where you work. No judgement though."

Honestly, I would have more respect for your sentiments if you would just stick to the logical conclusion of your position. Perhaps the scorn you meet is simply a reaction to this inability to simply follow the logical course of your own viewpoint. It has nothing to do with the mere existence of your morals it has to do with the fact that they are incompatible.

You want to have it both ways - you want to make a moral judgement and yet not make a moral judgement. Or you want to bound your moral judgement simply to yourself as if it is at all logical to not extrapolate it to others. If others can work for wherever they please, then what do you even mean by "morally acceptable" or "dodgy"? Simply places you prefer? That's not what morally acceptable means.

For someone who speaks of moral judgements, you don't seem to grasp their implications. I would suggest reflecting on this if you actually care about the reactions you elicit in others. This brief back and forth with you is certainly suggestive of a picture far different from the one you originally painted.

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palata 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Genuinely interested: if you ask someone where they work, and they answer that they work in [place some TooBigTech here], do you consider that they judge you because you are not working for a TooBigTech? "I work for a TooBigTech so I'm probably better and richer than you. No judgement though"?

To me it's like with vegetarians. If someone tells you out of the blue "I am a vegetarian because I find it completely irresponsible to not be vegetarian. No judgement though", it's not the same as someone saying "I would like to inform you that I am a vegetarian, given that we are going to eat something and it is relevant for you to know it right now". Yet that latter situation will regularly offend non-vegetarians just the same.

	▲	shwaj 17 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Very apt analogy.

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Folcon 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I personally think this is an uncharitable reading, you can have a different internal benchmark or standard you want for yourself vs others

From a purely consistency perspective I don't think you're incorrect, but humans aren't purely consistent

We are able to accept that our personal preferences aren't the same as others and still like, respect or love them anyway

I read the GP as stating:

- he wanted to work for a place that made him happy

- he voiced that pleasure to others, "I'm glad I work at a place I find inspiring"

- they took that as an implicit attack on them

There are at least two parties to a conversation, each of them gets their own opportunity to interpret what occurs

It sounds like in this instance they interpreted his position much more negatively than he intended

Now to answer why is in my opinion is much more complicated and I honestly wouldn't hazard a guess without either being there or knowing both parties very well

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Izkata 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> - he voiced that pleasure to others, "I'm glad I work at a place I find inspiring"

That's not what he said though. His version included a comparison to others:

> I made probably half what I could have made at places that were more dodgy.

That's where the offense comes from.

	▲	ChrisMarshallNY 9 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Just FYI. You're right, and I probably could have phrased it better, but I wasn't talking about this post. Most posts are "I worked at a company that did stuff I really liked, and was honored to work with some really inspiring people." That's usually enough to cause people to assume that I'm insulting them. I do my best to not be offensive, but some folks live in a world, where everything is a personal slight, and there's really nothing I can do about that.

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ChrisMarshallNY 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Have a great day!

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shikshake a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your comment really resonates with me, I’m in a similar position though much more junior. My colleagues in tech can’t fathom that I actively choose to stay where I am and make 50% of their salary.

I’ve found talking about ethics and moral responsibility with people working in big tech is futile and frustrating. Almost everyone takes it as a personal attack though I never hold anyone else to my moral standards.

	▲	strken 19 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Is that surprising? Big tech selects for people with few ties to a real life community (because they're willing to move to the Bay Area/NY/Seattle/etc.), no particular moral objections to the work, and enough brainpower to rationalise anything. Also, religion and philosophy are alike in that some people have a rich inner life that they are not willing to share with most of the world. Your acquaintance who works for a defence contractor is not going to explain why he believes propping up the Pax Americana (or helping ICE deport migrants, or working for a social media company, or any other example of something you don't like) is morally right unless he feels safe in doing so.

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parpfish 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the heart of the problem is that we’ve somehow conflated the highest paying Eng jobs with being the most prestigious.

People feel like if they want to climb the prestige ladder, they need some way of justifying the business practices of the megacorps.

In contrast, I feel like it’s well established that gigs in big law or finance or medicine have found a way to decorrelate pay from social status. You can make a choice between chasing money OR prestige.

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nmfisher a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For what it's worth, I personally have a lot of respect for people who do this (or at the very least, people who forego higher salaries to avoid working for companies they find morally objectionable).

	▲	ChrisMarshallNY 10 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> avoid working for companies they find morally objectionable I don't really think of it that way. I didn't work for "not-bad" companies. I worked for a good company. The attitude makes a difference. If the only way I can feel good about myself, is to define myself by what I'm against, I find life is bleak. I prefer to define myself by what I'm for.

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the_cat_kittles a day ago | parent | prev [-]

its because it hurts peoples feelings to confront the truth