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rfrey 18 hours ago

Maybe the very core of what it is to be human is to destroy ourselves.

mlrtime 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My hypothesis is: Humans are social and need social interaction to thrive. However we are not wired for the diversity of interacting with 7 Billion people and all the derivatives.

We thrive in small groups where there is high trust social networks and generally being around people with the same culture and belief system.

krapp 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But humans don't, in any meaningful sense, interact with 7 billion people when they use social media any more than they interact with the entire population of their city whenever they go out. And most people living in any reasonably sized city - to use that as a real world analogue for social media - aren't only interacting with small, high trust social networks of the same culture and beliefs, and they manage just fine.

Your hypothesis (which seems more and more common) seems to me to be a "just so" story, but it doesn't correlate with what I've observed of real human behavior.

agumonkey 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

maybe there's no core just unchecked forces due to technology removing barriers

micromacrofoot 17 hours ago | parent [-]

yeah evolutionarily we gained all this power to survive, now that we've got that figured out the drive to survive has been turned in its head

now we need to figure out a way to survive our survival instincts in the world of abundance and safety we have created

imo we have to conquer our own biology because we are too amped up as a species to choose temperance

agumonkey 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

i don't know much but 90% of medical advice is basically, drop modern life on a regular basis (walk, stay outside, hug, lift, touch, eat raw, eat few)..

it would be weird if the complex biosphere environment that made our ancestor struggle was also a key balancer that we can't replace

dividedbyzero 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The "eat raw" part seems at least partially misguided, since our ancestors apparently started cooking the heck out of their environment pretty early, didn't consume much unprocessed dairy until very late, and the raw food they did consume tended to carry less pathogens than modern mass-produced food.

The greatest part of the rest, however, appears to be true. I find I'm feeling much better overall, not worse, if I take the bike somewhere even in uncomfortable weather, and it turns out it's more fun as well, more often than not. Low-processed food makes my digestive system measurably happier, walking lots makes me unreasonably healthier, being among trees and mountains calms me to a crazy degree.

But then we did spend like 98% of our evolutionary history since the last big speciation event as hunter-gatherers, and we gotta be as adapted to that as any critter is to their lifestyle.

At this point I kind of expect to find perversions the social patterns and structures of hunter-gatherer groups embedded in the dark patterns that make social media so insidious, much like exploiting our built-in craving for scarce energy-dense nutrition made Coca Cola etc. the economic giants they are. I just don't know enough about the social structures of the deep past to spot these things yet. There doesn't seem to be a lot of literature on that either, so I'm not sure how I'll get there, but I'd like to.

agumonkey an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> I find I'm feeling much better overall, not worse, if I take the bike somewhere even in uncomfortable weather, and it turns out it's more fun as well, more often than not.

I'm lacking words to describe how I feel reading the same comment from many people online. I too felt weird seeing how much more peaceful and healthier simple bike commute made me. I remember coming home sweaty and running across angry car drivers pissed to wait for 3 seconds more than necessary in the comfort of their seat, while me doing all these efforts .. all calm, even joyful.

Same for food, it's hard to unplug from all sweet processed food, but after a month you realize your body doesn't need it. less but better food, helps sleep too..

fbarthez 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Totally agree regarding biking, walking, trees, mountains, and will add lakes. Though it does only lightly touch on social structures of traditional societies, you may enjoy reading "The Secret of Our Success: How Culture Is Driving Human Evolution, Domesticating Our Species, and Making Us Smarter" by Joseph Henrich. I also found classic texts of social and political anthropology to be very worthwhile for understanding human societies. Ted Lewellen's "Political Anthropology: An Introduction" is a good starting point.

SoftTalker 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Cooked food is easier to digest. The discovery of cooking is what allowed early hominids to grow larger brains (which have higher calorie demands) and become modern humans.

micromacrofoot 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

right essentially drop everything that's short circuiting our pleasure centers and do it the old fashioned way

we evolved to live in our environment and modernity has involved a lot of removing ourselves from it

15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
kingkawn 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nothing has been conquered. Technology is providing a behavioral selection process that is effectively self-culling the populace and is going to make the mass adaptation to the next century of climate change much more bearable for all

micromacrofoot 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

we have certainly conquered caloric density, reducing individual caloric expenditure, and eliminating environmental hazards (though it's not evenly distributed) to the point where pockets of the population are dangerously sedentary and overfed (and thus life expectancy is declining from a previous peak)

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You are being downvoted, but I am wondering if people, who are doing it are doing it reflexively just because they disagree and not because they thought it through. There is an argment to be made that there is a level of self-preservation that disappears when things become too sanitized. Case in point, during one of FL issues, people were panicking over gas and -- some -- were putting gas in unapproved containers without giving much thought over whether it is a good idea since gas can do a lot more than just power cars. Granted, some of the silly behavior is a direct result of social media egg ons/clout chase and weird level Tyler Durden accellerationist vibes, but some people simply don't know.. or care to know.

I am not saying it is a good thing, but there is something to be said about current distracted humans operating internal combustion engine. Then again, my dad already told me it is all going to hell, because I can't change oil...

api 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, our nature is to satiate our dopamine system. That system evolved to keep us fed, nourished, and to make us make friends and belong and have sex to make more humans. The problem is that we are now so smart and clever that we can start learning how the dopamine system works and hacking it.

This isn't new. We've been doing it for a long time with booze, porn, drugs, sexual excess, gambling, pointless consumerism, certain kinds of religious fervor, endless things.

But almost all of those things are self-limiting. They're either costly, dangerous, in limited supply, or physically harmful enough to our health that we shy away from them and taboos develop around them.

Addictive digital media may actually be more dangerous than those things precisely because it is cheap, always available, endless, and physically harmless. As a result it has no built-in mechanism that limits it. We can scroll and scroll and chase social media feedback loops forever until we die.

AI slop feeds are going to supercharge this even more. Instead of human creators we will have AI models that can work off immediate engagement feedback and fine tune themselves for each individual user in real time. I'm quite certain all the antisocial media companies are working on this right now. Won't be long before they start explicitly removing human creators from the loop and just generating endless customized chum with ad placement embedded into it.

Some people have the discipline to push back, but many do not either for psychological/neurological reasons or because they are exhausted and stressed and unable to summon the energy. Humans do not have infinite willpower. So I've been predicting for a while that eventually we're going to heavily regulate or tax this space.

This concerns me too due to the free speech implications and the general risk of overreacting and overcorrecting. It'll be tempting for politicians to regulate or tax only the platforms they don't like, or to use the regulatory mechanism to crack down on legitimate speech by grouping it in with addictive chum. We've seen similar things with attempts to regulate porn or hate speech. But it's coming. I have little doubt. I think we'll see this when GenZ and GenA start entering politics.

It's really still shocking to me. If you went back in time and told me in, say, 2006, that our engagement-hacking would be so successful that it became an X-risk to humanity, I'm not sure I'd believe you. I never would have believed how effective this stuff could be. It's just a damn screen for god's sake! I think a lot of people are still in denial about this problem because it seems so absurd that a touch screen can addict people as well as fentanyl, but it's true. I see it around me all the time.

Edit:

My preferred way to go about reeling this back in would be to strike at the root and start taxing advertising the way we tax booze, drugs, gambling, and other vices. Advertising revenue is the trunk of this tree. The entire reason these systems are created is to keep people staring so ads can be pushed at them. Take that away and a lot of the motive to build and run these things goes away.

Another, which we're already seeing, is to age-restrict antisocial media. Young minds are particularly vulnerable to these tactics, more so than adults, and all addiction pushers try to addict people early.

Lastly, we could start campaigns to educate people. We need schools teaching classes explaining to kids how these systems addict and manipulate them and why, and public PSAs to the same effect. It needs to be treated like a health issue because it is.

Taxes, education, and age restriction is how we almost killed cigarettes in the USA, so there is precedent for these three things together working.

We also need to be a lot more precise in our language. The problem is not the Internet, phones, computers, "tech," AI, etc. The problem is engineering systems for engagement, specifically. If you are trying to design a system to keep people staring at a screen (or other interface) for as much time as possible, you are hurting people. What you're doing is in the same category as what the Sackler family did with oxycontin. Engagement engineering is a predatory destructive practice and the people who do it are predators. I think it's taken a long time for people to realize this because, again, it's just a damn screen! It's shocking that this is so effective that we need to have this societal conversation.

lll-o-lll 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t have anything to add, but just wanted to thank you for this insightful and deeply thought out response. The solutions you list do look like they would work and I hope we find the political will, sooner rather than later.

derriz 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Patrick Boyle eventually comes to a similar conclusion in his video about global population decline - https://youtu.be/ispyUPqqL1c?si=7jUgVBkOvLHluPAR - but includes lots of graphs and other interesting factlets.

* warning for Americans: not suitable for those offended by sarcasm

airstrike 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Truly one of the best comments I've read in a long time.

We need to normalize calling it antisocial media.

SoftTalker 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree that advertising is the root of it, but some people might still pay for modern social media. They used to pay for porn, before it was available for "free" (ad supported). Some still do. I pay for YouTube to avoid the ads. I don't think I would pay for Facebook or Tiktok though. Possibly an uninformed opinion as I've never used those platforms.

intended 10 hours ago | parent [-]

The $ from people paying for subscriptions and the $$$$$$ from ad revenue, is too much of a bridge to cross.

pythux 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thank you for explaining the issue with such clarity. This is one of the best comments I’ve read for a while.

PKop 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's no way to reel it back. You said it here though:

> Some people have the discipline to push back, but many do not

This is simply a genetic selective filter that will destroy some people while others make it through, and there will need to be an overall adaptation against finding fake slop debilitatingly addictive. Like drugs, alcohol, porn, food, opiates, etc and other things some can resist and are able to abstain while some can't. I used to worry so much about these things in aggregate but I realized it's too pervasive to eliminate and impossible to change people's nature when it comes to resisting it or even worrying about it as a problem to avoid, so simply resisting better than others and having children that hopefully are able to overcome and avoid by way of finding more value in real experiences is the only successful outcome.

If one has to really really think hard about and try really really hard to overcome, then they're probably just not going to make it... and we all know for many people avoiding addictions comes easy. This chasm of reaction to stimulus means there will be divergent outcomes. It can't be any other way.

albumen 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is provably wrong. Preventative public health measures against for instance cigarettes and nicotine reduce uptake, reduce consumption and increase quitting. [1] In the case of smoking, this also cut second-hand harm/death from smoking. Similarly, preventative measures have first order and second order benefits for alcohol and other drug consumption.

Just giving up on those who show higher likelihood for addiction is a travesty. Failure to eliminate an addiction is no reason to give up reducing its harms, both to the person themselves, family and friends, and wider society.

[1]: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/21/2/172

foobarian 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It appears that the current content systems have some correlation in lowering the fertility rate; in that case they will be self-limiting after all, just not in the way OP mentioned about the other vices. It will be interesting indeed how things look after a generation or two.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

<< It can't be any other way.

This seems ridiculously fatalistic and weirdly binary way of looking at things. Best I can start with is 'why?', because to a simple person like me it could be any number of ways..

AlexandrB 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would be funny if the "great filter" is not nukes or some other weapon, but social media.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

ben_w 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've read that short story, but can't remember enough details to search for it.

Humans do find alien radio signals, but they keep going dark after a brief window; the narrator suspects why, because they witness fellow humans disappearing into simulations far more fun than reality could ever be.

TheEaterOfSouls 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Not quite the same concept, but The Machine Stops by E. M. Forster (published in 1909, but still pretty relevant imo) is about where this all might lead, with humans living in almost total isolation and only communicating through "the machine", which mostly sounds like modern social media lol. It's terrifying. Also really demonstrates how static human nature actually is.

Nasrudith 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Great Filter is just bullshit until we come across space ruins to prove that something has been filtering out civilizations. It is possible that we are just the "precursors" without any giants to stand upon the shoulders of.

Catastrophazing new media hasn't gone out of fashion yet. Remember when it was Reality TV that was supposed to be the downfall of civilizations?

jjkaczor 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Remember when it was Reality TV that was supposed to be the downfall of civilizations?"

The jury is still out on that one... failed "business" person who was also a "reality TV star" - and now appears to be in some level of dementia - currently in charge of the single biggest military-industrial complex on the planet...

ben_w 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The absence is the evidence.

Being a precursor is not inconsistent with great filters, a great filter is why nobody else is there to be one.

Great filter is anywhere at all in the progress of life from pre-life chemistry to stable interplanetary expansion; filters behind us, for example multicellular life or having dry land so we can invent fire, are still potential great filters and they would leave no space ruins to find.

That said, my assumption is lots of little filters that add up. Eleven filters behind us each with 10% pass rates is enough to make us the peak of civilisation in this galaxy; eleven more between us and Kardashev III would make the universe seem empty.

17 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
lqstuart an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The “Great Filter” is the fact that humans are nowhere near as remarkable nor “intelligence” as necessary as we want to think

tw04 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Remember when it was Reality TV that was supposed to be the downfall of civilizations?

I’d say we’ve already got measurable statistics. When half of genz isn’t dating or married, it’s signaling trouble.

https://aibm.org/commentary/gen-zs-romance-gap-why-nearly-ha...

Now, we can discuss if that’s good or bad for the planet, but it’s not great for humanity.

XorNot 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes I'm sure reality TV did it and not cost of living meaning they have little money for entertainment and definitely will never purchase their own home.

tw04 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, college aged men who aren’t in a relationship are avoiding pursuing one because they’re thinking about whether or not they’ll be able to afford a house some day. It definitely has nothing to do with social media and dating apps breaking human interaction.

nandomrumber 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is there any evidence that the fall in birth rates is caused by humans having produced reality TV shows?

I’d say there is better evidence to suggest the fall in birth rates is predominantly caused by telling women they should prioritise education and career over children, and enabling the invention of the single mother who survives on government largesse. Separating church and state appears to be contributing at least to some extent.

Single mothers, and women having their first child in their late 20’s or 30’s, appear to be maladaptive.

tw04 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> predominantly caused by telling women they should prioritise education and career over children

Who is “telling them that”? Society by allowing them to open a checking account? Women’s suffrage? The reality is that other than the most privileged, a modern family can’t afford to function without both parents working. I assume you’re for raising the minimum wage to allow a family to run on a single income with multiple children? Or your solution is to send us back to the dark ages and remove womens rights?

> enabling the invention of the single mother who survives on government largesse.

There’s literally nobody who has kids as a single mother with the goal of raising them on welfare, that might be the single most ridiculous statement in this thread.

> Separating church and state appears to be contributing at least to some extent.

The Russian Orthodox Church is government sponsored. How’s their birth rate going?

singpolyma3 15 hours ago | parent [-]

It's definitely not true that both parents need to work. I know many families where only one parent has an income, and it is a very low income (one works as a mover for example) and they manage to eat and live etc.

Do they live upper middle class on this income? No. But they do live and have multiple children.

tw04 9 hours ago | parent [-]

And I can guarantee they’re on government assistance because I know what a “mover” makes, and I know what diapers and formula cost, and they aren’t paying for multiple children on that salary alone.

singpolyma3 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I can promise you they are not. One of the families in question doesn't even get their tax credits because they are too far behind on filing. It's just the mover income. They have to make it work and since they must, they do

They don't buy formula obviously and they cloth diaper with used stuff from marketplace. To cover the two examples you gave

amanaplanacanal 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Caused by allowing women the same choices that men have. Would you rather they not have the choice?

coldtea 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Is there any evidence that the fall in birth rates is caused by humans having produced reality TV shows?

No, but there's is evidence that the fall in birth rates is affected by all the content slop people spend their times consuming instead of talking to one another and fucking one another... and the ideas that slop puts into their heads are even worse...

intended 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why not choose GDP? Or meat consumption? You could choose any pair of correlated variables.

Using “The invention of the single mother” is a poor way of explaining away Bad Marriages and relationships.

Also, there was a UN report which came out that showed that a major factor behind people choosing not to have children, globally, is money.

brabel 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Money has been shown convincingly to not be an important factor. Please read about it for a while and you will quickly see that it’s a discredited argument, not least because poor people everywhere have always had more children. Also, fertility rates are falling everywhere, especially in countries that are becoming wealthier.

toss1 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe think for a second from the perspective of a couple or woman who WANT to have children. The problems they face in today's economy where both people need to work full-time just to survive are huge, and it seems even crazier to add the time and money costs of a child, let alone several.

The way to change all of that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with economic and labor policy

Society decided it was OK to have the top 1% control 27% or all wealth and the top 10% control 60%, and allow companies to pay wages so low that a person working full-time cannot even get out of poverty, so 25%+ of the workers at the largest employer qualify for food benefits (and the employer even gives employees seminars how to get benefits), while the leaders/owners of those companies rake in more billions every year.

Society decided it was OK to make sure health care is expensive, incomplete, and bankrupting for any unexpected event.

Society decided it was the mothers who are responsible for all childcare and provide only minimum assistance for critical needs like prenatal care, and day-care.

You want more babies? Make just a few changes

Change requirements so corporations are required to compensate their employees merely the way the original US minimum wage was specified (including in the 1956 Republican Party Platform): So a single person working full-time will earn enough to support a household of four including housing (mortgage/rent), food, healthcare, and education. Recognize that the companies trying to exploit their workers by paying less so their full-time employees need govt benefits to feed themselves are the ones exploiting welfare, and do not have a viable business model, they have an exploitation model.

Add making healthcare sufficient and affordable for all, including children and support for daycare and the time and effort to raise children.

Change those things, and instead of a couple looking at making an already hugely insecure future even more insecure by having children, they would see an opportunity to confidently embark on building a family without feeling like one misfortune or layoff could put them all in the street.

SoftTalker 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Do you have a citation that the US federal minimium wage ever had the objective that "a single person working full-time will earn enough to support a household of four" because I can't find it in the Wikipedia entry[1] or other top level search results. I also don't see this idea in the 1956 Republican Party platform[2]. At best from reading a few other sources it looks like at its peak in the late 1960s it would have been enough to keep a family of three above the poverty line (though that hardly implies they could afford a mortgage and higher education).

  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States
  [2] https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1956
Nursie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> a single person working full-time will earn enough to support a household of four including housing (mortgage/rent), food, healthcare, and education.

Here’s the problem - some people will still make the choice to have ‘get ahead’ by having both partners work. They will then use their relatively greater economic power to get better housing and more stuff. So others will join them, and they will bid up housing (because it’s the most important thing) until we’re back to where we started and even those who don’t want to do that now have to.

It’s a sorta tragedy of the commons situation.

The only real solution there is for governments to look at social housing, and also to try to produce A glut of house building.

Because until we have one or the other (or both) people will just keep bidding up accomodation to the edge of what’s affordable on two incomes.

toss1 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yes, there will likely be that phenomenon, but will it occur faster than the approx 2% level of optimum inflation?

>>The only real solution there is for governments to look at social housing, and also to try to produce A glut of house building.

Creating a universally-available baseline lodging situation for everyone is certainly a public good that would yield a LOT of benefits from eliminating homelessness (benefiting not only the homeless but also everyone who their problems affect) to promoting family stability.

Whether the best way is to incentivize a glut, subsidize social housing, or just provide a housing stipend for anyone in need, another system, or some combination of all-of-the-above should be subject to study and experimentation.

KPGv2 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I’d say there is better evidence to suggest the fall in birth rates is predominantly caused by telling women they should prioritise education and career over children

I'd say the evidence is inconclusive and could just as easily be explained by not telling men they needed to take on their share of the burden at home now that their women were no longer trapped at home doing unpaid, manual labor all day.

Instead, we're letting people say "gay sex includes giving a woman an orgasm instead of a pregnancy" (an actual thing I've heard a right-wing influencer say right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH6uydPCX8Q ) and encouraging men to be more selfish and anti-woman.

Also who cares about a fall in birth rates? We need a fall in birth rates. Above replacement rate is mathematically unstable in the long term.

When people complain bout "a fall in birth rates," they're a mix of capitalists who need their profits to ever increase, and white supremacists who mean WHITE people need to have more babies because society is too BROWN now.

We're about to have hella unemployment from too many people for too few jobs. We need fewer people.

mlrtime 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your post, youtube link and quote is quite ironic given the title of this thread.

You link to a youtube podcast of kids stating things as if they are facts, its just a podcast. I've never heard these things actually said anywhere. It means nothing.

Then your quote is taken out of context and a new culture war is created, well done.

seba_dos1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's interesting how common the theme of "a man being into women is gay" is among the right-wing circles, though usually it's hidden in the subtext and not just spelled out in clear like this.

coldtea 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Catastrophazing new media hasn't gone out of fashion yet. Remember when it was Reality TV that was supposed to be the downfall of civilizations?

And it was. We're now even further down in that downfall, and most content is "reality TV" style now: influencers, parasocial relationships, IG, TikTok, OF, news vlogs and podcasts that are about the anchor an not the content, and so on...

throwaway94275 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One could argue modern social media like Tiktok and Snapchat is an evolution of reality TV, in app/smartphone form.

walterbell 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Any real-world side effects of Reality TV?

ben_w 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Arguably the election of Trump.