I keep being surprised this is such a big deal on HN, and I have begun to wonder whether this is just a uniquely American conversation.

I grew up among European and other international English speakers and writers, and no one blinks an eye at a semicolon or an em-dash. I'm not saying they use them frequently or overuse them, they simply know how to use them correctly and use them well. Writing without either is like ... cooking without garlic. You can, but it certainly makes affairs a lot more boring.

Now I understand that America has gone through 1-2 generations of English language teachers drilling their students to simplify, simplify, simplify and emulate the ideal of Hemingway. Is that where this all comes from, do you think?

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oasisbob 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> America has gone through 1-2 generations of English language teachers drilling their students to simplify, simplify, simplify

I think so. Strunk & White is distinctly American. You see simplicity encouraged by others, including Virgina Tufte (_Syntax as Style_), and her well-known son Edward Tufte.

When I was learning to write, em dashes were not even touched on. The idea that exotic punctuation could be required to express cogent thoughts in academia would get laughed out of the room.

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idle_zealot 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> teachers drilling their students to simplify, simplify, simplify and emulate the ideal of Hemingway. Is that where this comes from?

No. It comes from the fact that Americans are functionally illiterate and genuinely have no idea how to use or interpret em dashes or semicolons. They don't use them and don't expect anyone else to use them. The only time Americans see these punctuations are in the handful of classic books they're required to skim to pass high school English class.

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pessimizer 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Why are Europeans so high on their own farts?

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idle_zealot 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In 2023 only 44% of American adults read at a high school level.

https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/2023/national_results.asp#...

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xboxnolifes 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The drop from 2017 to 2023 is worrying, but my first reaction is to ask if that is only in the US or is it global? I couldn't find 2023 data for other countries, but the 2012-2017 PIAAC literacy data puts USA roughly in line with the rest of the world. I know people dunking on American literacy isn't new, it goes back easily to 2012 or earlier. If the US is illiterate, then so is much of the world.

screenshot for convenience: https://i.imgur.com/IMrCZch.png

data explorer: https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/ideuspiaac/report.aspx

	▲	idle_zealot 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		That's depressing. For some reason this sub thread seems to think I'm talking about the US from the outside like a punching bag. I singled out the States because I'm more familiar with my country's stats.

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dxdm 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is an honored tradition.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/295674/origin-of...

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andrewflnr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Mostly they're a pain to enter on our keyboards.

	▲	beej71 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I used to use .Xcompose which was great, but then I stopped for some reason (like it didn't work right with XFCE or something). Now I use Vim digraphs. ^K-M.
	▲	wdporter 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		alt-0151 (numeric keypad) on windows Some other useful ones to memorise: 0150 the endash, 0133 the ellipsis, 0145 the single quote opening, 0146 the apostrophe/single quote closing, 0147 and 0148 for double quotes, 0149 for a bullet point.