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Qwertious 7 hours ago

Wayland made writing WMs needlessly hard, and the benefits of Wayland were frankly not real - most of the reasons given in 2011 were patched in to X11 later. All the Wayland rewrite got us was a situation where Wayland is both bleeding-edge and obsolete simultaneously. Say what you like about X11, but by the time people unironically pushed for mass Wayland adoption, X11 was stable and boringly so.

The future of WMs is, IMO, Arcan - https://arcan-fe.com/ - but that's an ambitious project and I don't blame the main developer for deliberately going out of his way to avoid advertising it before it's ready. In the meanwhile, Wayland and X11 both more-or-less work with the occasional major pain in the ass.

sho_hn 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> "most of the reasons given in 2011 were patched in to X11 later"

This definitely doesn't match my memory, and I was there :) Most of the good reasons remain unavailable in X11 to this day.

There definitely were some attempts to advance X11 that post-date Wayland, most notably the proposals by Keith Packard, but they never got much traction.

shevy-java 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> This definitely doesn't match my memory, and I was there :) Most of the good reasons remain unavailable in X11 to this day.

You two here don't mention any of the reasons. It is hard to discuss this when there are no specifics, so what was needed, and what was not added?

yepguy 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The 3 justifications I remember for Wayland were security (isolating windows from each other), multi DPI, and eliminating tearing. All are now features of XLibre.

sho_hn 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This is all playing a bit fast and loose with the details.

The "isolating windows from each other" stuff in Xlibre for example is the Xnamespace extension, which requires a static config file up front and lets X clients within the namespace interact as before. This may have some utility for specific scenarios (dunno, kiosks maybe?), but is nothing like Wayland's default security model.

Similarly, enabling TearTree in the modesetting driver and having another backbuffer in the driver is a huge crutch vs. having a proper architecture where the compositor can own presentation timing. For one it makes adaptive sync/VRR a lot trickier.

These things are overall not equivalent.

uecker 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

It isn't clear why any of this would require a rewrite.

mathstuf 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Per-display DPI settings. No snooping on input without permission. Awareness of the lock screen (the compositor can know that the lock screen is active and provide alternate keybindings instead of having to configure the lock application as well). Locking is not blocked by context menus being open.

I ran XMonad for 15 years, but recently switched to river and am loving it.

maxdamantus 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Per-display DPI settings

fwiw, Xorg already had this, since you can set the DPI for each display through RandR/xrandr. In both X11 and Wayland it's up to the toolkit to actually detect the setting and rasterise accordingly.

Wayland actually went backwards in this respect by using "integer scales" (eg, 1, 2, 3) instead of fine-grained DPIs (eg, 96, 192, 288), so using a scale of 1.5 would result in downscale blur (toolkit sees scale as 2, then the compositor scales it down to 75%), whereas in Xorg you could just set the DPI to 144, and the toolkit could theoretically render at the correct resolution. As far as I know Qt was the only toolkit to actually do this automatically, but that's not X11's fault.

Wayland has at least since fixed this in the form of "fractional scaling" [1], but here's [0] an old thread on HN where I complained about it and provided screenshots of the resulting blur.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32021261

[1] Doing some quick searching it seems like this is still unsupported in Gtk3/Gtk4, maybe planned for Gtk5? Apparently Firefox has only just added support (December 2025), 3 years after the fractional scaling protocol was released. Seems ridiculous to me that Wayland failed to get this right from the start.

kelnos an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You can do per-display DPI just fine on X11 (through xrandr), it's just the major toolkits don't support it. GTK, for example, reads a single global DPI value from XSETTINGS; there's no reason why it has to be that way.

The annoying thing about the other things you mention is that they honestly are not that difficult to fix.

The X server can throw an error (or just silently ignore it) when one client passes the window of another client and button/key events in the mask to XSelectInput(). And the Xinput2 bits that allow for receiving all key and button events can be changed to only send events destined for windows in the same client. There: input snooping is fixed.

Lock screen awareness can be fixed with new requests/events in the MIT-SCREEN-SCREENSAVER extension (or, if that's fraught, a new extension) that allow an app to create a "special" lock-screen window, which the X server will always stack on top, and send all events to. (That new functionality should probably allow for child windows and popups for input methods as well.) This is honestly not hard!

And yes, some applications will break when you do this. But I cannot see how that's not significantly better than creating an entirely new display protocol that everyone has to port to.

There are other issues with X11, of course, mainly in the graphics pipeline (e.g. the compositor should really be in the X server), but it's hard to believe these things couldn't be fixed. It feels like no one really wanted to do that: building something new from scratch that (in theory) didn't have all of the mistakes of X11 would be more fun, and more rewarding. And I get that, I really do. But Wayland has created so much work, so many thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands? million+?) of developer-hours of work for people that maybe could have been better spent.

So I think Phoenix is a great idea. It's basically "X12"[0]: removing the old cruft and making breaking changes to fix otherwise-unfixable problems. I imagine most modern, toolkit-using X11 applications would work just fine with it, without modification. Some -- perhaps many -- won't... but that's ok. Run a nested, rootless X11 server inside "X12" if they can't be fixed, or until they're fixed.

[0] Yes, I know that an X12-type thing was considered and rejected (https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/), but I still think it's a better idea, after a decade and a half of Wayland still not being able to support everything we need to port Xfce's components and maintain all of their features.

PunchyHamster an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

At around that time X.org worked entirely fine for me, sans some NVIDIA driver config I had to set up in /etc

few years after even that wasn't required.

Yeah it missed some features I could theoretically use in 2025 but I didn't had different DPI/refresh rate displays back then and those could probably be put into X11 protocol just fine

PunchyHamster an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the problem is that people wanting to build that and being in position to (being paid for by their employer), are fed up with X11.

It learned no lessons from X11. It made most things harder to write and pushed more things that really every WM needs and doesn't care much to implement differently to WMs making them harder.

For example, stuff like "WM need to manage raw inputs, so they can have more power over them" is cute on paper but in reality most of them don't want to because there is no benefit to reinventing that part. Sure, that part in X11 could be better, maybe it should have better interface for WMs to configure common options in common way without getting into input-driver-specific options, but that just required rework of the idea, not throwing it into the bin and replacing with near entirely worse framework that wastes everyone time.

mikkupikku 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> I think the problem is that people wanting to build that and being in position to (being paid for by their employer), are fed up with X11.

I think one of the intrinsic problems with relying on developers being paid by their employers is they can easily become personally disinvested from the thing they're maintaining; they get paid well, the day-to-day grind gets stale, they get interests and hobbies other than computing but keep working on the thing because it's their job. Eventually they find that just buying a Mac is an easier lifestyle at home, and gradually maintaining X transforms from something they do out of passion for the project into something which is just a job. So they look for ways to make their job easier, hit on the classic "instead of maintaining old thing it'll be more fun to make our own", and because they are now untethered from the needs of real users they only need to make sure the new thing supports the bare minimum to keep their employer happy. They no longer care how real users feel, any use case that isn't required in the checklists approved by management get deliberately abandoned. So we end up with Wayland lacking common sense desktop features in demand by users for years because it's simply not convienent for the developers who are now dispassionate 9-5ers.

I prefer to take my chances with enthusiasts keeping X working on shoestring budgets. Maybe a few more years of development of coding models will make ongoing maintenance easier going forward and I'll never have to switch. I'm willing to make that bet. If it turns out that in 5 years I am forced to switch, at least by then Wayland will be five years more mature, and maybe my cynicism will even be proven wrong by then and Wayland will be good by then (but I'm not holding my breath for that.) Anyway, I have nothing to lose by using X as long as humanly possible.

szundi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

seanw444 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

First time I've heard of Arcan. Sounds intriguing.

bigyabai 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

IMO, if you have to rewrite a display server implementation then you're already proving all the protocol advocates right.

shevy-java 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Why? People complain that the YAML specification/protocol is too complex. This may be, but I found using YAML much, much easier and nicer than XML. So to me these two things are not necessarily interconnected. You can have a great implementation and a crappy protocol; but also a great protocol and a crappy implementation.