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semenko 6 hours ago

I found the most interesting part of the NIST outage post [1] is NIST's special Time Over Fiber (TOF) program [2] that "provides high-precision time transfer by other service arrangements; some direct fiber-optic links were affected and users will be contacted separately."

I've never heard of this! Very cool service, presumably for … quant / HFT / finance firms (maybe for compliance with FINRA Rule 4590 [3])? Telecom providers synchronizing 5G clocks for time-division duplexing [4]? Google/hyperscalers as input to Spanner or other global databases?

Seriously fascinating to me -- who would be a commercial consumer of NIST TOF?

[1] https://groups.google.com/a/list.nist.gov/g/internet-time-se...

[2] https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-se...

[3] https://www.finra.org/rules-guidance/rulebooks/finra-rules/4...

[4] https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/8/what-you-need-to-kno...

dmurray 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I never saw a need for this in HFT. In my experience, GPS was used instead, but there was never any critical need for microsecond accuracy in live systems. Sub-microsecond latency, yes, but when that mattered it was in order to do something as soon as possible rather than as close as possible to Wall Clock Time X.

Still useful for post-trade analysis; perhaps you can determine that a competitor now has a faster connection than you.

The regulatory requirement you linked (and other typical requirements from regulators) allows a tolerance of one second, so it doesn't call for this kind of technology.

blibble 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> I never saw a need for this in HFT. In my experience, GPS was used instead, but there was never any critical need for microsecond accuracy in live systems.

mifid ii (uk/eu) minimum is 1us granularity

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

throw0101c an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> mifid ii (uk/eu) minimum is 1us granularity

1us is nothing special for GPS/NTP/PTP appliances (especially with OCXO/rubidium oscillators):

* https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/clock-and-timing/sy...

* https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/productinfo/gps-time-...

dmurray 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's 1 us granularity, which means you should report your timestamps with six figures after the decimal point.

The required accuracy (Tables 1 and 2 in that document) is 100 us or 1000 us depending on the system.

blibble 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> The required accuracy (Tables 1 and 2 in that document)

no, Tables 1 and 2 say divergence, not accuracy

accuracy is a mix of both granularity and divergence

regardless, your statement before:

> The regulatory requirement you linked (and other typical requirements from regulators) allows a tolerance of one second, so it doesn't call for this kind of technology.

is not true

goalieca 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My guess would be scientific experiments where they need to correlate or sequence data over large regions. Things like correlating gravitational waves with radio signals and gamma ray bursts.

prpl 2 hours ago | parent [-]

those are GPS based too. You typically would have a circuit you trained off off 1PPS and hopefully had a 10 or so satellites in view.

You can get 50ns with this. Of course, you would verify at NIST.

bob1029 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> a commercial consumer

Where does it say these are commercial consumers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schriever_Space_Force_Base#Rol...

> Building 400 at Schriever SFB is the main control point for the Global Positioning System (GPS).

throw0101c 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I've never heard of this! Very cool service, presumably for … quant / HFT / finance firms (maybe for compliance with FINRA Rule 4590 [3])?

To start with, probably for scientific stuff, à la:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rabbit_Project

But fibre-based time is important in case of GNSS time signal loss:

* https://www.gpsworld.com/china-finishing-high-precision-grou...

mmaunder 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

SIGINT as a source clock for others in a network doing super accurate TDOA for example.

machinationu 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

science equipment, distributed radio-telescopes where you need to precisely align data received at different locations

secondcoming 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think Google uses chrony instead of NTP

creatonez 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

Google doesn't use chrony specifically, just an algorithm that is somewhat chrony-like (but very different in other ways). It's called Google TrueTime.

esseph 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm sure all of that is true, but so is "Department of Defense".

They're also the largest holder of IPv4 space, still. https://bgp.he.net/report/peers#_ipv4addresses