> If they have children, barring some violent circumstances, then they've already participated in designing their life.

This is not the kind of design we're discussing here; "not having children" is usually a privileged, informed decision which most people are not in a position to make. It's certainly very far from "designing your career". Regardless, a lot of people don't have much choice here either, through a system conspiring on denying them choices (see: anti-abortion and anti-sex education lobbies, a health care system that conspires against their free time and energy, etc).

There's an illusion of choice, especially to us pontificating from our privileged lives, but no real choice.

> But sure - no one is denying that some folks exist [...] their agency is significantly diminished.

Most folk, not some.

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BeetleB 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> This is not the kind of design we're discussing here

It certainly seems to be.

> "not having children" is usually a privileged, informed decision which most people are not in a position to make.

As I said - barring some violent circumstances, having a child, or at least the actions leading up to it, is a decision one makes.

> It's certainly very far from "designing your career".

This thread is not about designing one's career, but designing one's life. See the top level comment.

> Regardless, a lot of people don't have much choice here either, through a system conspiring on denying them choices (see: anti-abortion and anti-sex education lobbies, a health care system that conspires against their free time and energy, etc).

I've yet to meet someone who is not underage and doesn't understand that having kids is a consequence.

Sure, poor education and lack of abortion play a role, but none of that negates the fact that the person had a choice. It's exceptionally insulting to those who made different choices that led to positive outcomes to be told that people just like them in the same circumstances didn't have a choice.

Sorry, but your stance is very much coming across as privileged, who is trying to sympathize with people you don't understand. It's a very different perspective when you actually come from the background you're claiming didn't have a choice.

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the_af an hour ago | parent [-]

> As I said - barring some violent circumstances, having a child, or at least the actions leading up to it, is a decision one makes.

This is simply a falsehood you believe.

Or rather, it's a very constrained, mostly unfree "choice", with a lot of pressure from society telling them it's the wrong choice to make, barring them from access to abortion, contraception, and in many cases decent access to health and education. In many cases they are not even aware the choice existed, because it was concealed from them. I'm not sure if you are even aware a lot of people are not sure how babies come to be.

It's easy to claim everyone has access to these choices when you are, well, privileged.

> Sure, poor education and lack of abortion play a role, but none of that negates the fact that the person had a choice.

It absolutely negates it.

> It's exceptionally insulting to those who made different choices that led to positive outcomes to be told that people just like them in the same circumstances didn't have a choice.

Statistically, very few do. The odds are stacked against them. So it's not insulting at all; what's insulting is claiming from a privileged position that they "had a choice".

> Sorry, but your stance is very much coming across as privileged

Nope.

> It's a very different perspective when you actually come from the background you're claiming didn't have a choice.

Let me guess: your family was starving and dirt poor, your siblings were all addicts, but you managed to overcome this, educate yourself, and raise yourself to entrepreneurship. Is this where this is going?

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BeetleB an hour ago | parent [-]

> Or rather, it's a very constrained, mostly unfree "choice", with a lot of pressure from society telling them it's the wrong choice to make, barring them from access to abortion, contraception, and in many cases decent access to health and education. In many cases they are not even aware the choice existed, because it was concealed from them. I'm not sure if you are even aware a lot of people are not sure how babies come to be.

> Statistically, very few do. The odds are stacked against them.

I've already acknowledged much of these circumstances, right from my first comment. It doesn't change the very trivial fact that engaging in such behavior is a choice. Nor does it change the fact that virtually everyone has choices. I'll repeat what I said:

"Yes, people in privileged positions have a much larger "choice space". And yes, plenty of underprivileged folks simply refuse to pursue the choices they have. Both these things can be true."

As I said, even if you have kids, deciding whether you will feed them or let them starve (with all its consequences), is still a choice. Unless there are mental health issues involved, the person is making choices.

> Let me guess: your family was starving and dirt poor, your siblings were all addicts, but you managed to overcome this, educate yourself, and raise yourself to entrepreneurship. Is this where this is going?

No. But I didn't have easy access to contraception and abortion. And I was not a big outlier in the choices I made.

And let's be real: The majority of people who come to me and complain that they didn't really have a choice did not have siblings who were all addicts, coming from a dirt poor starving family.

Arguments from extremes are not helping you.

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the_af an hour ago | parent [-]

> It doesn't change the very trivial fact that engaging in such behavior is a choice. Nor does it change the fact that virtually everyone has choices.

Quite the contrary, it does change it.

> As I said, even if you have kids, deciding whether you will feed them or let them starve (with all its consequences), is still a choice.

It's very hard to take you seriously after this.

> Arguments from extremes are not helping you.

This isn't about me or you; I don't need help. And you've just made an extreme argument which I quoted above.

By the way, it amazes me you consider the real world "an argument from extreme". I suppose from a very limited sample one might draw the same conclusion as you.

	▲	BeetleB 24 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> It's very hard to take you seriously after this. I take it you've not encountered such folks? It must be nice to be shielded. As I said, your comments definitely give off "privileged" vibes. I don't know your background, but spend some time in various countries - both wealthy and not. Both repressive and not. When people debate the virtues and vices of freedom, much of what we discussed in this thread come into play. The US is very much a country centered on freedom, and the reason many are in a bad state is precisely because the US gives them more freedom by letting them have these choices. Statistically, they will choose poorly, but the fact that their behavior is predictable via statistics doesn't negate the fact that they made those choices.