| ▲ | maerF0x0 3 hours ago |
| As a taxpayer I'm tired of funding everyone's project. Especially in private institutions which have billions under management and are ran like hedge funds, and not increasing their intake. Time to fix the deficit and kill off our debt. If the rebuttal is "yeah but advancements improve the economy" -- The private sector can fund projects which are opportunities with an economic basis, they can take the risk and they can see if it is profitable in the market (ie beneficial) If the rebuttal is "How will America stay competitive?" We cant seem to keep trade secrets anyways. [1] [1] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 Edit: Also the 4 years at a time thing is probably a better choice too, because it makes them less twitchy politically. You get your 4 years, regardless of who's team is in office. This should be a win regardless of your affiliation. |
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| ▲ | acuozzo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > The private sector can fund projects which are opportunities with an economic basis You've inherited a nation built atop research which, at the time it was done, had no immediate pathway for economic viability. The groundbreaking research out of Bell Labs and DARPA provide many examples, among many more from other institutions, to support this claim which changed the entire world in addition to our nation for the better. To think that this research would have been the product of economic incentivization is folly. We, as a nation, have been spoiled by these gifts of our past and, like so many spoiled trust fund children, are flushing our inheritance down the toilet. |
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| ▲ | enragedcacti 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a fine sentiment but there are a dozen different game theory principles that contribute these investments never getting made when left in the hands of the private sector. If you're upset about not reaping any of the benefits of your tax dollars, just buy the S&P 500. Of course you don't want the government investing in bad ideas but that doesn't seem to be your sticking point. FWIW I don't think the status quo is ideal, the government should be getting more credit for and more value out of research that results in profit for private companies so it can invest in and lessen the tax burden of future research. |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Can you please name/educate us on some of those game theories and how they apply? (Please don't just point me to prisoners dilemma on wikipedia unless it lays out how it applies to research funding) | | |
| ▲ | enragedcacti 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Free rider problems/tragedy of the anticommons - research that isn't directly patent-able would result in a dearth of private investment because there isn't a comparative advantage in researching it Tragedy of the Commons - Research into monitoring, maintaining, regulating, and improving resources shared by private companies Positive externalities - Some research will not pencil out without including return on investment that cannot be captured by a company Negative externalities - Companies won't invest in research to reduce injury to other parties (could fix with regulation also but depending on specifics this may be very difficult to enforce) | | |
| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | awesome, thank you. You've given me some holiday reading at the very least :) |
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| ▲ | biophysboy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How are we going to produce all of the basic research that is non-excludable & non-rival? What incentive do companies have to produce results like this? The biotech industry is already tricky, with long lag times and a low probability of success. More risk just increases the discount rate and lowers the present value, making it an even less appealing investment. |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Capital will seek the best opportunities, let's keep the incentive structure sane. Which means first tackling the biggest problems, with the highest probability of success, for the most people. As the opportunity space is explored or saturated, we'll move on to lower EROI opportunities. By getting the highest EROI initially we'l be richer still for chasing down philanthropic spaces (for the opportunities which do not make economic sense, but make moral, humanitarian sense) | | |
| ▲ | mnky9800n an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Capital didn’t seek quantum mechanics which led to semi conductors which led to computers. Capital didn’t seek weather prediction which led to chaos theory which led to modern control systems for basically everything. And it certainly didn’t seek neural networks for the first half dozen decades they existed. So it seems like capital may have a poor nose for long term reach investment. | |
| ▲ | biophysboy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I ask again: How are we going to produce all of the basic research that is non-excludable & non-rival? What incentive do companies have to produce results like this? | |
| ▲ | fzeroracer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Capital seeks the best opportunities, like deliberately lying about asbestos in baby powder, producing fraudulent research and continuing to profit off poisoning individuals. | | |
| ▲ | biophysboy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is unfair: biotech/pharma companies do valuable work, particularly in translational medicine. | |
| ▲ | miltonlost an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't forget tobacco companies lying about cancer and oil and gas companies hiding climate change research. | | |
| ▲ | maerF0x0 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but that is an issue of ethics and regulation. Fraud is illegal and should be punished proportionally to it's effects. | | |
| ▲ | bulbar 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Capital doesn't seek the best opportunity, it can only seek the best monetary opportunity and that can involve fraud or products that are bad for society. Without market-independent research you often wouldn't even realize that is what's going on. | |
| ▲ | justin66 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Fraud is illegal and should be punished proportionally to it's effects. That's adorable. | |
| ▲ | fzeroracer 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Who got punished for the J&J asbestos issue? Who got punished for cigarettes and their deceptive advertising? And how badly did the Sacklers get slapped for causing the opioid epidemic? If you're making the argument that they should be punished proportionally to their effects then all of these cases should result in the individuals being jailed for life at bare minimum and their assets forfeited. Yet this hasn't happened. Why? | | |
| ▲ | maerF0x0 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I can't answer why, but I would suggest it has very little to do with the government spending on research, or in the way it allocates it annually vs 4 year blocks. I have noted in the past that I do enjoy how intense the FTC and other consumer protection style agencies get when Democrats run the whitehouse, ideally companies would behave because if they dont the institution that has a monopoly on violence will club em really good, so to speak. IMO Citizens united and the way we fund the political game has broken the incentives to being a company on good merit rather than on legalized corruption. | | |
| ▲ | QuercusMax 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yet you ignore that when the Republicans are in power (they are very well supported by capitalist interests) they try to slash all the regulations - because money only cares about money and wants more money. And the money LOVES corruption because it gets you more money. Capitalism without regulation is gangsterism. With regulation it's barely-controlled gangsterism. |
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| ▲ | wibby an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | tarsinge 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The private sector can fund projects which are opportunities with an economic basis The private sector can only fund easy low hanging fruit productization projects (Tesla, Apple, SpaceX, …) once the hard public fundamental research and infrastructure (Internet, Rocket Science, Physics, etc…) that has no short term economic value investment is done. |
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| ▲ | jswny 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So only opportunities with a path to economic profitability should be researched? That is a very narrow view of advancing society |
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| ▲ | tw600040 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Research anything and everything on your own dime. if it's taxpayer's money, then yes, it has to have at least a probability of profitability. | | |
| ▲ | Esophagus4 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If it could be profitable, the private sector would fund it. Government funding can help with things that we decide are good for society, but not quite profitable financially. Examples: CDC lead exposure research, Earthquake Early Warning System… even the tech we use today came out of non-commercialized funding (NIST Post-Quantum Cryptography and ARPANET). | |
| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And if there is a probability of profitability then there is a market to sell that opportunity for capital. But in a high interest rate environment some ideas just arent worth exploring. | |
| ▲ | techterrier 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | generating private profits are the best use of public money? | |
| ▲ | unbelievably 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | QuercusMax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As a taxpayer you should go after wasteful military spending, not scientific research. |
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| ▲ | yongjik an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > As a taxpayer I'm tired of funding everyone's project. Some Americans took a hard look at the state of America as the world's leader in science, technology, and industry, with a ton of cutting-edge research attracting the smartest from all over the world, and decided "This sucks, can we go back to the simpler times where everyone had a factory job and they all looked and spoke like me?" ...And they might just get their wish, from how it looks. |
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| ▲ | danaris an hour ago | parent [-] | | No, they absolutely will not. Those factory jobs are, to a first approximation, gone for good. Either they are being done by humans in other countries that not only have a cost of living less than 1/5 of ours, but also have massive supply and logistics chains built up to support them, or they have been automated. Sure, there will be a few much-ballyhooed factories built and staffed, but compared to the period after WWII, which is what most of them are thinking of, it's going to be less than a drop in the bucket. And, for the vast majority of people, that's an unalloyed good. Factory jobs are hard on the body. Office work may have less of a nationalist mythos built up around it, but it's genuinely better for most people. | | |
| ▲ | yongjik an hour ago | parent [-] | | Ehh... I was just making a crass joke that MAGA might end up making America so poor that Americans would be willing to work for terrible factory jobs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That just seems like the straightforward maggot plan though, once you read past the marketing hopium? Assuming our new Chinese owners will be willing to let us have factories, of course. |
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| ▲ | lawlessone 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >As a taxpayer So like everyone else in the world that pays taxes? |
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| ▲ | hyperadvanced 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The response (usually) is “OK but whatabout the $X billion we spent on the military?” Which isn’t wrong necessarily, but it doesn’t answer why or whether we should be spending so much money on everything else |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I actually agree here too. America (and Americans) spend waaaay too much, and especially on niche things that profit very specific subgroups. We need to get back to the basics. Johnny can't read[1], or do math. That should be funded long before we worry about today's PhDs, those kids are the pipeline of future PhDs. /r [1]-https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancraig/2024/11/15/kids-cant-... | | |
| ▲ | dmix 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The state/local gov tend to be responsible for public education funding. in the US federal gov only does <10% of the funding. US public education spending is also top 5 in the world so I don't think a lack of money is why "Johnny can't read or do math", something else is going on |
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| ▲ | exe34 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| fix the deficit and kill off the debt? he added $2tn by giving tax cuts to corporations... |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I agree. Just because I agree with 1 thing "He" did doesnt mean I agree with everything. | | |
| ▲ | exe34 an hour ago | parent [-] | | So it's clear that cutting those grants was never about fixing the deficit/debt. |
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| ▲ | mullingitover 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > We cant seem to keep trade secrets anyways. Zero sum thinking. It is possible that we can improve the entire world and ourselves, but for many the reasoning is "It's not enough that I should win: others must also lose." |
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| ▲ | jandrewrogers 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That is not zero sum thinking. It is a classic free rider problem. | |
| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem is the competitive landscape by which other nations which are Anti- us, are taking but not giving. And are happy to see us go down the drain to their own profit. It's less about zero sum and more about the existence of enemies in the world who are even willing to lose smally if we lose bigly. (to speak like dilbert) | | |
| ▲ | mullingitover 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > who are even willing to lose smally if we lose bigly Realistically though, this has nothing to do with geopolitics. This wouldn't be happening if the research community were driving around in trucks with MAGA flags and sleeping with Dear Leader body pillows. This regime is entirely transactional and it's a howler to pretend otherwise. The academic research community could be dealing literal tons of hard drugs and they'd get a pass as long as they were card carrying party members. |
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| ▲ | paddleon 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| 1) Tax dollars don't fund the government. The government funds the government. That's what "Fiat currency" means. 2) How do you feel about the money going to ICE? |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Increasing money supply vs taxation is kinda just misdirection. It's politically disadvantageous to increase the tax % versus just siphoning purchasing power out of cash holders pockets silently and through the back door of increasing money supply. Not sure why it matters what I feel about ICE, besides an attempt to categorize me or my affiliations. However, in general I believe the US has a large amount of very silly self inflicted wounds, a terrible immigration policy has lead to a situation where people only/primarily get in illegally, and then those people have to make compromising choices based on their legality. Attempting to reset the playing field is noble, but fixing the path to legality would have been nobler. A big chunk of it is a waste of money in an attempt to chase the holy grail in America... "Jobs". | |
| ▲ | ahyattdev 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Tax dollars don't fund the government. The government funds the government. That's what "Fiat currency" means. There was $4.9 trillion in revenue and $6.8 trillion in outlays in 2024 [1]. 95% of that revenue was from taxes. In spite of the high deficit, it remains a true statement that the federal government is funded by taxes as they account for the majority of funding. [1]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61185 |
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