Fail-safe means "in a situation where the function fails, fail in a way that doesn't cause injury" -> the cars didn't know how to proceed, so they stopped, with their lights on, in a way that any attentive driver could safely navigate... which is a failing safe.

The alternative here, is a protocol that obviously hasn't been tested. How on earth are you going to test a Waymo in blackout conditions? I would rather have them just stop, than hope they navigate those untested conditions with vulnerable pedestrians and vehicles acting unpredictable.

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moregrist 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Fail-safe means "in a situation where the function fails, fail in a way that doesn't cause injury"

In a very local sense, this is true. In terms of the traffic system, this can create a systemic problem if the stoppage causes a traffic jam that creates problems for emergency vehicles.

Thus it is a _different_ failure mode.

If someone stops in the middle of traffic because they’re lost, their GPS went out, or they realized that they’re unsafe to drive, we don’t celebrate that as the driver entering a fail-safe mode. We call that “bad judgment” and give them a ticket.

If it precipitates a larger problem where lives are lost, they may be in considerable legal or financial trouble.

I don’t see why we should treat Waymo any differently.

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scoofy 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Traffic doesn’t cause injury. Why are we concerned about traffic flow in a blackout situation. The cars stopped at intersections, EMS could use the oncoming lanes. I’m not seeing how it’s not a fail safe, you’re describing it as not being fail-ideal, and I would agree.

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olyjohn 4 hours ago | parent [-]

One way roads exist.

	▲	scoofy 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I'm confused, is your concern that enough Waymos shut themselves down on a one way road, at the same intersection, so as to block the intersection? Yes, I could see that as being a concern. I suspect it would be reported almost immediately, and would be at the top of the list of for the folks at Waymo to address. The cars weren't abandoned. They eventually moved. Though, I suspect they had to be manually driven (virtually or otherwise), out of the way. I can see how this could be a problem, but considering it would likely be at the top of the list of problems for Waymo -- again, during an emergency -- that I suspect it's not a serious concern in the long run. Would I preferred that they had a light turn on that was flashing "An unknown emergency is occurring, please park me"? Yes, I think that would be a better solution. I would have preferred better performance from Waymo. My entire point here is that I'm happy that in my neighborhood, the Waymos were acting in a fail-safe manner, rather than just winging it.

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MBCook 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Simulate them on a test course? There are absolutely places with street lights and everything that you could test something. Hell since they don’t need to work you can just have some put up in a parking lot to test with. Who cares.

You don’t need to wait for a city blackout to actually test this kind of scenario.

The thing still has cameras. And LIDAR. It should be fully capable of pulling over on its own safely. Why would not having a traffic light prevent that?

Humans are expected to negotiate this. The robots should be too. That’s part of driving. If the lights fail, the law tells you what you’re supposed to do. And it is not stop the intersection.

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scoofy 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Simulate them on a test course?

Yes, what’s the worst that could happen… oh wait… people literally getting killed.

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MBCook 3 hours ago | parent [-]

When did a Waymo kill someone on a closed test course?

	▲	scoofy 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I'm suggesting that, perhaps, the vehicle will not preform the same way in a dangerous, real world scenario as it would in a training exercise.